Equal rights are not *special* rights. Gays should be allowed to marry the person they love, just like straight people can.

Anyone who insists that affording gays the right to marry will somehow harm "traditional" marriage or bring down the wrath of God should know that there are four countries in which gay marriage IS legal: Canada, Belgium, Holland, and Spain. None of them have been showered with brimstone for it. None of them have seen a change in the divorce rate for straight people, either.

For those of you who still believe being gay means someone is promiscuous, I will tell you that is not the case with the three gay/lesbian couples I know personally. They have been with their partners for more than 15 years. They should have all the civil rights of marriage.

http://www.freedomtomarry.org/

We,

Please do not make duplicate posts in multiple threads. Pick one thread that you feel is most fitting.

Thanks.

I guess we should be glad you are not holding public office.

The definition of marriage has been fixed for thousands of years. Why do you folks insist on changing that? Be gay if you want, but whatever you call that, it is not marriage. Should I be able to call myself handicapped, and partake of the associated benefits, because I need glasses and because I cannot throw a baseball 90 mph? Silly, ain't it?

Fidelity in a relationship does not equate with marriage.

I'm going to veer away from my conservative lean and agree that homosexual couples should have equal rights. My opinion differs in that the government should not be in the marriage business at all. Civil unions for everybody.

I say take the government out of the "marriage" business completely. Make everything civil unions between two people (regardless of sex) for legal purposes and if the couple is religiously inclined, let them be married in a ceremony in the church that they worship in and that accepts them.

BTW, this is the one and only topic that I have ever changed my opinion on based upon reading debate on internet message boards.





Edited to change the second paragraph.

I vote yes to that! Emphatically, yes yes yes! Marriage should be about who you love and who you want to be your partner in crime and who you want to grow old with and who you want to share your life with.

Get married y'all! Go for it!

People marry people.

Just because something is old, doesn't make it right. Just because it's been around for a long time, doesn't justify it.

People love people, Snoopy, regardless of the packaging or the container.

I love you and look at how you act.

Hit the button that says "reply in the post you want to reply to, delete the text you do not want to reference, and you'll get a result like I did here.

Snoopy:
Marriage has not been fixed for thousands of years, or even in the old Testament. In ages when war killed off many men, it made sense to "share" wives (polygamy). Hence the multiple wives of the patriarchs in the Bible. In some cultures, a woman could have more than one husband. Homosexual relationships were recognized in ancient Greece, Hawaii, Japan, etc.

Marrying someone you love is a recent development. Remnants of "traditional" marriage can be found in the marriage ceremony. The father "gives" away the bride because at one time, the woman's life was run by her father until she married a man her father picked out for her. She had no say in the matter. I am old enough to remember when the bride was to say she would love, honor and *obey*, but the husband only had to say love and honor. Having a wedding ring for the groom is recent too. It was much more important for a woman to be faithful than for her husband to be.

P.S. You are making an assumption that I'm gay. My post does not mention my orientation. If you must know, I am bi/F, but I don't have to be to support equal rights.

Hrm, I can't think of one good argument for Gay Marriages. Only bad.

Moral Decay
Higher Insurance Rates (due to the statistic which show Gays are more susceptible to certain sickeness)
etc

Whose moral standards are we using? I think those that approve of civil unions and marriage outnumber those that support neither. Here's a link to an April '05 Washington Post poll. The question about gay marriage/civil unions/no recognition is number 18. If you add those that approve of civil unions or marriage, they outnumber those that prefer no recognition.

As for sicknesses, I would think that insurers would be more concerned over the millions in the country with health issues related to being overweight. Putting too much food in your mouth is easily preventable, right? Being gay isn't (I know, some will argue it's a choice...I don't subscribe to that).

I'd like to hear more about your "etc."

What is the problem with civil unions? Wouldn't that give them all the rights of married people.

Here we go again.....

Higher insurance rates? Are gays currently being denied insurance? I know they're being denied marriage, but aren't they currently using health insurance? Why would the cost change if they were granted marriage? (I know, marriage is hazardous to your health. ) I'm missing something.

How are gays more suseptible to sickness? Because gay men penetrate anally which can tear soft tissue? If so, then what's up with all these hetero men poking women there too? And then are lesbians less sickly? Or are you sinuating the stereotype that gays are promiscuous drug users?

And moral decay? Teenage girls are servicing guys because it's dubbed "cool." And they think it's safe! Babies dumped and abandoned. Brave soldiers dying so we can sit safely behind our computer and squabble about who is allowed to partner up and who is not. "You and you are okay together, but no no no, not you and you." Like some guy calling a square dance.

Why do some anti-gay marriage people feel that their own hetero marriage will somehow be downgraded if gays are permitted to marry? How does any other marriage have any effect on yours? Do you then feel less about your marriage everytime someone trashes their own? Have you petitioned to bar Jennifer Lopez from her marriage rights?

In the end, I truly think it simply disgusts some people because they aren't used to it. It's foreign to them and therefore doesn't appear natural. I think in years to come, you'll have to get over it and accept it.

Afterall, homosexuality has been around for thousands of years, and you know what happens then: it must be right if it's been around for that long.

You love it!

And I love you, you sexy beast! When are all of us girls meeting to get drunk and make out?

Heather! Well said

I think the higher insurance rates could come from the ability of the surviving "spouse" to receive benefits. In a gay marriage the surviving person is not eligible.

But the benefits must go somewhere, another relative maybe, I am not sure. Maybe the insurance Co. pockets it. Anyone know?

Thank you, Pops.

Please provide your source for that statistic. If it's from Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute, you should know that he doesn't even have a psychologist's license. American Psychological Association sent Paul Cameron a letter informing him that he had been dropped from membership. This was due to his sloppy and politically motivated research methods. He claims he was raped by a man when he was young. I think that would explain why he has made opposition to gays his life's work.

Both! I was laughing at post #17, but thought #16 was well said.

Pops,

I assume that you were opposed to homosexuality prior to "discovering" your son was one? If so, what if you had "discovered" that your son was having sex with animals, or was a habitual drug user, or was doing something else that you were opposed to or thought was wrong? Would you have changed your mind about that? I guess I'm wondering, what exactly made you accept it as okay?

Way to compare homosexuality to drug use and beastiality.

Here, I'll re-phrase what Snoopy SHOULD HAVE said.

"Pops,

What if you had discovered your son needed glasses? Or was adopted? Or liked brocolli? Or his favorite color was green? What would have made those things OK?"

Just a guess and I'm not answering for Pops but if it were one of my sons
that would be a good enough reason. As long as my son was happy I'd learn to live with it.

Snoop> If you had a child would you disown them if you found out they were gay?
If you found out they were smoking crack would you turn your back on them or try and help them?


My personal opinion is its hard finding happiness and if you can whether its a man or woman be happy and F the rest of the world!

x2

NONSENSE! Equal rights are ALWAYS special rights. In United States law, we protect certain groups of people by granting them special protections. They're loosely referred to as "protected minorities". Any law passed to provide so-called "equal" rights for any particular group actually serves to provide SPECIAL rights and protections for them. Everyone else has equal rights: groups granted special protections under the law get special rights on the basis of their identifying characteristics. The question is whether we will grant anyone special protections and rights based upon the fact that they practice sexual perversion. I flatly refuse to do so. Perverts deserve ostracism and condemnation, not special status.

Gays are not the same as crack cocaine addicts, they're far WORSE. Crack addicts have a physical addiction so severe that one can only blame them for being stupid enough to have tried it those first few times before getting so horribly hooked on it. After that, they're more victims of the addiction than anything else. Gays may be "addicted" in a manner of speaking to their chosen sexual perversion, but the intemnsity of their slavery to the sin of their choice is nowhere near as severe as that involved with drug addiction, and especially not as bad as crack cocaine. It's far easier for a homosexual to kick his or her perversion than it is for a crack addict to kick their habit.

MARRIAGE is by definition the union of man and wife, male and female. It is a special spiritual state that two men or two women cannot ever attain. Whatever games you play with words, whatever label you apply to a homosexual union, it can NEVER actually BE a marriage.

You're absolutely correct. I would add that just because something is POPULAR doesn't make it right, either. God decides what is right and wrong, not man, and He has stated very clearly that homosexual acts are not only wrong/sinful, they are an abomination.

Thankfully, YOUR god doesn't make the laws in this country, nor will he ever.

Myth: Homosexuality is like a disease, for which you can go to rehab
Fact: You can't help with whom you fall in love. Nobody has the power to stop love, and therefore, homosexuals will NEVER go away.

Homosexuality is the willful practice of sexual perversion. In my opinion, not only do homosexuals not deserve special rights, they do not deserve equal rights either. They ought to be viewded and treated just as we do other perverts: pedophiles and those who practice beastiality. They should still be considered criminals and their sick and twisted deviant sexual practices should be illegal.

That said, I treat homoseauls no different than I do anyone else, when I encounter them in public. But I would NEVER want one of my children to be alone with any one of them not even for a minute, and I would never trust a one of them with anyothing of real value.

The Bible is the ONLY absolute moral authority.

There is only one God, not mine nor yours. If you do not repent you will spend eternity buring in hell regretting your current obstinate defiance. Repent and be saved while there is still time, or be damned forever: the choice is yours.

The laws in this country are made by the people via their elected representatives. My vote is only one of many that opposes you.

P.S. - You've got your facts and myths completely confused, as you will one day discover.

Pops said he changed his views. I'm trying to learn what they were before and after, and why they changed.

To answer your question, no, I would not disown or turn my back on my kids in your examples. But at this time I also do not see myself as suddenly saying "Well, okay, Timmy is gay so that must mean being gay is 100% normal, good, decent, and okay with God". Just as my children now do things I do not agree with, I do not disown them or stop loving them, but I don't condone it just because they did it, either.


TB and Phish -- You're offended! Gee, how shocking. Sometimes I think you two go out of your way to be offended. Are you offended by everything you disagree with? If that's your ruler, I'm offended by most of what you two write. So what? Take a pill and lie down if you need to.

I'll take it one step further. I find that if TB and PHISH are NOT offended, then that's usually because I have NOT expressed my opinion forcefully enough. Offending the two of them is something to be proud of, NEVER to apologize for.

Just because I don't agree with someone on something, doesn't mean I'm automatically offended. In this particular case, I think it is justified considering you're comparing someone who is homosexual to someone who is a debilitating drain on society. Homosexuals are tax paying doctors, lawyers, police officers, firemen, volunteers, etc. They're just like everyone else, except are ostracized for whom they love. It's so silly when you get down to it. Why does everyone care if someone loves someone of the same or opposite sex? Why is it your concern? And how does it affect you? Honestly, it makes no sense to me. If you don't like it, don't be gay, or don't even associate with gays! It's THAT simple! Why does everyone have to make it so hard?

We could always start comparing gun advocates to murderers.

I understand what you're saying, and that's a good point. Maybe I should've clarified in saying that if you don't like a particular group of people, don't surround yourself with them. For example, I don't like racists, or closed-minded individuals and therefore, do not associate with them outside of when I absolutely have to (work, at the store, etc.).

P.S. I certainly wouldn't encourage people to NOT associate with gays, as most of the ignorance demonstrated on these boards is from those who have never had a family member, or close friend who is gay. Fear = ignorance, sad but true.

I'm not afraid of Gays. I know of a few. I just am disgusted by them.

...and there's nothing wrong with any of that when it comes to gays, any more than when you try to keep pedophiles or other sex crime violators out of the neighborhood or public schools or certain jobs. Gays are self-confessed PERVERTS. Sexual deviants. Sick and twisted, perverted scum. I don't care how much good P.R. they put out, it will never change the fact that they are sickening sexual deviants.

I fear no queer, and I am not ignorant of the sick and perverted things that they do - they just turn my stomach, is all. That homophobia nonsense is a bunch of bull****.

Like what kind of sick and perverted things? I assume these are things that are grossly different than what heterosexuals participate in.

Thanks PHISH, you just saved me from asking the same question...

And there we have it. In a nutshell. Thanks for simplifying it, samy.

Why? Because you'll never have the personal style or decorating skills to match?

You have every right to not like anyone for whatever reason you chose. You do not have the right to dictate how they live their lives just because you don't like them.

No, that's what I have my loving (female) wife for. Just kidding ladies.

Indeed. Sick perverts can't control their basest urges. They want to just go ahead and "F" anything that gets them aroused while the rest of you just stand around cheering them on.

Sick.

That is absolutely untrue, and now you may as well keep heterosexual college boys from going to school too, because I've seen a few who will "F" anything that moves too.

And they have no right to "push" their agenda on me. They need to abided by the law of the land. That law does not recognize two men/women as a couple.

Female anythings

Have you no imagination, Yoss? There are plenty of internet sites that cater to your prurient interest. Go check out some of them if you really want to know... don't ask me to entertain you!

PHISH, you wouldn't know the TRUTH if it jumped up and bit you on the ...

Wow, what a compelling argument you offer, as usual. No sources to back up your statements, and no time to find them, even though you have time to spew your hatred. You're so full of it B - even a blind man could see that.