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txexpatriot
I have been reading the news regarding the BOE negotiations and the Teachers Union...So far I have not been able to find out what exactly the teachers union is demanding...I have only been able to discern that the BOE offered 8.5% raise and it was rejected...

Am I just missing something?
Snoopy
That is a huge raise. WTF do they want? huh.gif
City Park Dad
maybe it was too much and they rejected it and are demanding a lower amount. blink.gif
Udmas
laugh.gif



Maybe they want paid for the months they're off in the summer.
txexpatriot
Y'all have been a great help--making me feel that I was not a nutjob for not 'understanding' the 'problem'...My question is What problem?
Snoopy
No teachers here? cool.gif
Tony Campello
The teachers are being ridiculous. my attitude tell them take it or leave it. If they strike fire them. End of sentence end of discussion. Then hopefully the people running our fine county will get the idea that they could and should get rid of the superintendent also.
Udmas
laugh.gif That'll never happen.
txexpatriot
"Queen Elizabeth" per the paper today is one of the top women in MD--does that mean she likes to be in 'control',,hee..he..
SMan
QUOTE (txexpatriot @ Mar 7 2007, 08:19 AM) *
I have been reading the news regarding the BOE negotiations and the Teachers Union...So far I have not been able to find out what exactly the teachers union is demanding...I have only been able to discern that the BOE offered 8.5% raise and it was rejected...

Am I just missing something?



I was talking to a teacher friend this weekend. Apparently, the problem is health care costs, not the pay raise offered.
txexpatriot
So they want more health care costs picked up--such as? Every company I have worked for have slashed the amount of medical insurance they pay for during the past 15 years--the employee picks up more & more of the plan costs, but they each also offered a menu of plans--from the very limited(catastrophic only) to the most incredible(included dental, eye exams..)...is this what they want offered to them? Or do they already have this & the costs have increased & they want the taxpaying public to pony up more $...

Either way, I cannot see that they deserve more than 8.5% to cover all..
SMan
The only thing that was mentined was getting a vision plan. We didn't talk much else about it. Please don't take my word as the definitive truth in this matter, as this was just an off hand conversation that lasted maybe 30 seconds.

One other tidbit he told me was that teachers are not required to join their union and many don't. Is that true? I thought places were either a union shop or not, with no choice for the employee to opt out. I would love to be able to get out of my union.
City Park Dad
QUOTE (SMan @ Mar 12 2007, 09:55 AM) *
The only thing that was mentined was getting a vision plan. We didn't talk much else about it. Please don't take my word as the definitive truth in this matter, as this was just an off hand conversation that lasted maybe 30 seconds.

One other tidbit he told me was that teachers are not required to join their union and many don't. Is that true? I thought places were either a union shop or not, with no choice for the employee to opt out. I would love to be able to get out of my union.


Leave the brotherhood? That's a sure what to get fitted for some cement shoes laugh.gif
txexpatriot
QUOTE (City Park Dad @ Mar 12 2007, 10:04 AM) *
QUOTE (SMan @ Mar 12 2007, 09:55 AM) *
The only thing that was mentined was getting a vision plan. We didn't talk much else about it. Please don't take my word as the definitive truth in this matter, as this was just an off hand conversation that lasted maybe 30 seconds.

One other tidbit he told me was that teachers are not required to join their union and many don't. Is that true? I thought places were either a union shop or not, with no choice for the employee to opt out. I would love to be able to get out of my union.


Leave the brotherhood? That's a sure what to get fitted for some cement shoes laugh.gif



Thanks Sman! BTW--does anyone get Vision Care anymore? I have BC/BS & it isn't even offered any longer..anymore than orthodontia is...

As far as not joining the 'mob' I think the teachers are one of the few 'open' shops...but of course I am sure you are
'encouraged' to join...
txexpatriot
I finally found sort of the answer...and here is the link:

http://washington.mstanea.org/negotiations/proposal2.23.htm

And I can see why there is a disagreement over health benefits..they want the moon!!
Snoopy
They want a 7-8.5% + pay raise AND 100% vision insurance, up to $2,000 for dental and up to $2,500 for orthodontic coverage on top of current insurance which I am sure is quite a good package.

Yeah, so do I.
Aldo
QUOTE (Snoopy @ Mar 14 2007, 11:56 AM) *
They want a 7-8.5% + pay raise AND 100% vision insurance, up to $2,000 for dental and up to $2,500 for orthodontic coverage on top of current insurance which I am sure is quite a good package.

Yeah, so do I.


...and what does the county provide the rest of their employees - deputies, roads workers, etc. who we depend on for vital services? Nothing close to this I can tell you!!!!! How about the school support workers?

What kills me is the old ploy about "attracting the best qualified teachers..." BS! I know at least three teachers with school age children. They send their kids to private school. Do you think teachers at St. Mary's and Broadfording make what Wash. Co. teachers do? Kinda interesting wouldn't you say?

Education is one of those political hot potatoes nobody wants to handle - "its for the kids" you know. Are good teachers vital? Sure they are but improving their working environment would be much more cost effective to improve recruitment and retention than trying to out bid every other jurisdiction.
Snoopy
Gee, too bad no teacher's union folks read this forum, cuz then maybe they could step forward and educate us on their position... rolleyes.gif
txexpatriot
You mean like why Martinsburg, WV teacher starting salary is 29k & ours is 39-41k? See this:

QUOTE
"Pay increases they've gotten from 1997 to 2007 ... teachers have gotten a 41.7 percent increase in pay over 10 years," he said. "How many people at their current jobs can say they've received that increase in salary?"
This was published on 1/26/07..it also stated the teachers want 12% increase...not the 7% they proposed..ugh..
Udmas
41% that's the crap that p!sses me off, the private sector don't see raises like that. But all they have to do is say it's for the kids and the public gives in.
txexpatriot
Wouldn't bother me sooo much if I saw a signifigant improvement in the education level of our students--but heck, they learn less every year...the students in the 70's understood more...
Idiot
QUOTE (Udmas @ Mar 29 2007, 06:25 PM) *
41% that's the crap that p!sses me off, the private sector don't see raises like that. But all they have to do is say it's for the kids and the public gives in.


Actually 41% in ten years isn't that much when you consider that inflation is typically 2-3 percent per year. Before I started my business my income rose approximately 100% from 1987 to 1997, and almost 150% between 1977 and 1987. I was working for 3 different DoD contractors around the Washington beltway during those years and the majority of engineering jobs had similar increases I believe. Granted, inflation was much higher then but it wasn't that much higher.

Of the original 6 employees that started working for me in 1997, 4 are still there and all of them had had more that 40% increases in salary.

How many people here have had less than 40% increase in salary in the last 10 years?
samy0
I just figured my ten year increase was 82%! really puts it in perspective when you go back 10 years and as much as I hate to admit it Idiot is right. 41% over 10 years isn't that much. Thats a COLA+1% average. very much in-line with the rest of employers
Snoopy
What they got over 10 years in not relevant now – what is relevent is what is a fair wage/benefit package for now and going forward. What they appear to be asking for is too much. And union supporters seem unwilling to support their position publicly.
Udmas
I have to admit my salary over the past ten years has increased almost 100% but mainly though advancement.

If you look at the construction industry you'll be hard pressed to find very many people that have gotten a 41% pay raise over the past ten years.

That would mean a $15.00 an hour employee would now be making $21.25
Aldo
I don't think everyone should be so hung up on the salary issues alone. As I understand it, it is the fringe bennies that is the stumbling block anyway. They want more health bennies for equal or less employee contribution (right???) while all other employers are cutting these same benefits or transfering more of the cost to the employee.

Now, I'll be the first to say I'd like to see everyone get better benefits but I can hardly support giving it to one group - even one group within an group i.e. - teachers vs. all other county employees - while the overall trend is the oposite. Whats more, when an employer's benefit package improves so do their expenses, which are simply passed on to the customer. In this case the customer is the taxpayers. If we're getting greatly improved services that warrant improved rewards that'd be one thing but the BOE's own statistics don't indicate this is the case. So why should we be rewarding them more than others?

Seems the offer is fair and the teachers are being unrealistic. While politicians are afraid to be "anti-teacher" the teachers should not be seen as sacred cows to be given whatever they demand. I know they have a tough job but then so do lots of others getting a lot less! A reality check is desperately needed at the WCTA.
Flipper
You are right Aldo about alot. I just wanna know why any of this surprises y'all. People are spoiled up here and many other places where money and economy means more than what kind of effort someone puts in or how good of a person they are. I could be the best person with the best values and it holds no weight, unless the kicker of money is thrown into the equation. I could the most terrible person but if I have money then all of a sudden Im awesome. People serious think about it what really means more money or who a person is inside?
Aldo
Well the first thing everyone has to realize in a discussion on "government solutions to a problem" (wow, now there's an oxymoron!) is the answer is always to throw money at it. More money has to get you something better right? WRONG! As an example I have applied for several Federal government jobs. I have never scored below 98, several times higher than 99 out of 100, yet I have never scored high enough. Why? Because there are always other candidates who get bonus points for this or that status. Is it any wonder we have problems when we need to deal with some government employee when we're hiring less than the best actually qualified applicants?

Doesn't it make you feel safe knowing that law enforcement and homeland security types are hired based on race, sex, previous (unrelated) government employment, (unrelated) educational acheivment, etc... instead of actually KNOWING SOMETHING about the position they're hired for? I'm getting off topic since I don't know if the BOE uses these practices or not but I'd be surprised if they don't. One thing that is prevalent locally is the old-boy network. Not that it necessarily has anything to do with gender but rather "knowing somebody" is the best hook to get a local government job.

No Flipper, it doesn't matter what kind of person you are. It doesn't even necessarily matter how qualified you are. That's why it never ceases to amaze me how white men are continually berated and stereo typed as racists simply because there are more of them in the work force. White men are possibly the most discriminated against segment of the population - at least for government jobs.

OK, I apologize for my somewhat OT rant. Let's get back to the subject... Washington County due to demographics will never be able to compete dollar for dollar for employees against it's wealthier neighbors to the east. However it IS a nicer place to live generally. What we can do is try to make it a nicer place to work as well. In relation to schools, most of the solutions that would make them nicer work envirnments are also conducive to better learning environments! The typical win - win situation. Things like smaller class sizes, increased teacher control of his/her individual classrooom, better resources, etc. not only make the teacher's job more enjoyable but the student's experience as well. What's more, it's a fact of life that happy employees do a better job! To be happy in one's job most are willing to do it for a bit less than they can get elsewhere with more stress.

Maybe, just maybe we should be spending those dollars on improving these conditions rather than trying to buy the best teachers!
Udmas
QUOTE (Aldo @ Mar 31 2007, 07:06 PM) *
If we're getting greatly improved services that warrant improved rewards that'd be one thing but the BOE's own statistics don't indicate this is the case. So why should we be rewarding them more than others?


On that note I found this interesting.

What do we get for school dollars?

QUOTE
To the editor:

With the announcement by the Washington County Public School System (WCPSS) that its proposed budget for next year will be $219 million, it is time to put its magnitude and the rate of its increase into perspective. In 2000, the budget for the WCPSS was only $114 million. Next year's budget will be $105 million dollars higher, an increase of 92 percent!

So we will now be spending more than $100 million more on education than we did just a few short years ago. Some of this increase is obviously attributable to enrollment growth, but the enrollment of the school system will only be 11 percent higher over this same period of time compared to the 92 percent increase in the budget. So the budget will have increased at a rate of more than eight times the rate of enrollment growth.

How about staffing efficiency in the school system? With increases in enrollment there was obviously a need to add employees for the school system. However, while enrollment will have gone up 11 percent, the number of school system employees will go up 23 percent.

It is quite puzzling why the school system had to add employees at a rate of more than twice that of the enrollment growth. As part of this increase, there are 88 more planned additions to the BOE payroll next year including two new $100,000-plus administrators. This amounts to one new employee for every six new students.

To put the budget increase into even better perspective, in 2000 we spent $5,860 for each student in the school system. Next year, we will be spending $10,200 for each student. So we will be spending 73 percent more to educate each student next year as compared to what we spent in 2000. If you think about it in terms of what it takes to operate a classroom, the numbers are even more shocking. A classroom of 24 students will cost more than $100,000 more to operate next year than it did in 2000.

In terms of the quality of education provided for this substantial amount, the perception has been created by the WCPSS administrators that they are providing a world-class education for all students.

In fact, on the cover of the 2006 annual report is the phrase, "Ensuring world class education for all students." However, if you look at the information contained in this same report, this perception is far from reality. In the section titled "Master Plan Highlights," they have selected three areas that they have perceived to be highlights. They include the performance by Washington County students on the nationally recognized SAT and AP (Advanced Placement) tests, as well as the level of curriculum completion known as the University System of Maryland requirements.

Now, the way that they have presented the information on these three areas sounds impressive. Unfortunately, what was presented was not completely objective. In reality, the performance by students in each of these three areas was below the state average. That simple fact seems to have been lost by the WCPSS administrators who were supposed to be presenting an objective evaluation of the school system's performance in this taxpayer-funded document. These three areas were even self-selected by these administrators to be expressed as "highlights" in this annual report. So how is it exactly that the students are being provided with a world-class education when they are performing below the state average?

Of even more concern though is that, despite the significant increases in spending per student, the performance by Washington County students on these national tests has actually declined over the years. The time period shown in the annual report is from 2000 to 2005, and during that time, the average SAT score for WC fell from 1027 to 1000. This performance was the worst in recent years, yet it was declared a "Master Plan Highlight" by school administrators. In terms of the Advanced Placement tests, the passing rate fell from 58 percent to 45 percent over the same time period.

To put this into a still better perspective, the passing rate of 45 percent was more than 20 percent lower than the state average. So where is the impact of the additional millions of dollars that have been spent? Why hasn't this issue even been addressed by our elected officials?

It seems that the facts that are not to the liking of the school administrators are just omitted from this report and others like it. Where is the oversight by our elected BOE officials? Why don't they have standards in place so that the citizens of Washington County can receive a complete, objective evaluation of the performance of the school system and the effectiveness of the use of our tax dollars toward our children's education?

Masking situations such as these will do nothing to provide our children with the education that we are paying for, and it will do nothing to attract good jobs to this area. It is time for our elected officials, both the BOE and County Commissioners, to take a much closer look at the budget and demand an adequate payback for the ever increasing amount of our tax dollars that are targeted for education.

Bob Brady
Hagerstown
Flipper
QUOTE (Aldo @ Apr 1 2007, 09:09 AM) *
Well the first thing everyone has to realize in a discussion on "government solutions to a problem" (wow, now there's an oxymoron!) is the answer is always to throw money at it. More money has to get you something better right? WRONG! As an example I have applied for several Federal government jobs. I have never scored below 98, several times higher than 99 out of 100, yet I have never scored high enough. Why? Because there are always other candidates who get bonus points for this or that status. Is it any wonder we have problems when we need to deal with some government employee when we're hiring less than the best actually qualified applicants?

Doesn't it make you feel safe knowing that law enforcement and homeland security types are hired based on race, sex, previous (unrelated) government employment, (unrelated) educational acheivment, etc... instead of actually KNOWING SOMETHING about the position they're hired for? I'm getting off topic since I don't know if the BOE uses these practices or not but I'd be surprised if they don't. One thing that is prevalent locally is the old-boy network. Not that it necessarily has anything to do with gender but rather "knowing somebody" is the best hook to get a local government job.

No Flipper, it doesn't matter what kind of person you are. It doesn't even necessarily matter how qualified you are. That's why it never ceases to amaze me how white men are continually berated and stereo typed as racists simply because there are more of them in the work force. White men are possibly the most discriminated against segment of the population - at least for government jobs.

OK, I apologize for my somewhat OT rant. Let's get back to the subject... Washington County due to demographics will never be able to compete dollar for dollar for employees against it's wealthier neighbors to the east. However it IS a nicer place to live generally. What we can do is try to make it a nicer place to work as well. In relation to schools, most of the solutions that would make them nicer work envirnments are also conducive to better learning environments! The typical win - win situation. Things like smaller class sizes, increased teacher control of his/her individual classrooom, better resources, etc. not only make the teacher's job more enjoyable but the student's experience as well. What's more, it's a fact of life that happy employees do a better job! To be happy in one's job most are willing to do it for a bit less than they can get elsewhere with more stress.

Maybe, just maybe we should be spending those dollars on improving these conditions rather than trying to buy the best teachers!

Damn right Aldo!!! Your my type of guy. Bout damn time I foind sometime who see a little the way I do. Thank you so much buddy. Take that you forum naysayers. Liberty?
tagout
we have world class boe, now when do we get wold class teaching of our kids? some of my sons friends come here and cant even spell, and in the 11th grade, thats a shame.
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