DISCLAIMER: If you will look were this thread has been placed you will see it is about READING the BIBLE. This thread will not be used to argue the merits, or lack thereof, of those proclaiming to be Gods Children. All are welcome, TO DISCUSS THE BIBLE.
I am starting this thread because I am once again reading the Bible, this time, I hope, with more love and understanding in my heart. The purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to other who have, or still are reading this Wonderous book. Thank you.
Full Version: The Bible
Good luck with that. 
Wow. That didn't take long 
QUOTE (samy0 @ Jan 10 2008, 07:27 AM) 
Wow. That didn't take long
Samy, not to sound like YosSquad, but the purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to others who have, or still are reading this Wonderous [sic] book.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 07:36 AM)
QUOTE (samy0 @ Jan 10 2008, 07:27 AM)
Wow. That didn't take long
Samy, not to sound like YosSquad, but the purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to others who have, or still are reading this Wonderous [sic] book.
Correct you are! I dont think the answers you seek are in the bible but it's Pattons thread so I'll let him tell you who supplies the rocks
QUOTE (samy0 @ Jan 10 2008, 07:45 AM)
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 07:36 AM)
QUOTE (samy0 @ Jan 10 2008, 07:27 AM)
Wow. That didn't take long
Samy, not to sound like YosSquad, but the purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to others who have, or still are reading this Wonderous [sic] book.
Correct you are! I dont think the answers you seek are in the bible but it's Pattons thread so I'll let him tell you who supplies the rocks
Much like a broken clock, I'm right at least twice a day. I always wondered about the rocks. It's a monumental even when parents decide to have their rebellious son put down. It's kind of like when our President signs an important bill into law. They use many pens at the signing ceremony and afterwards, the pens are distributed to people connected to the bill.
Does the same happen with the rocks?
Even though I've read the Bible cover to cover at least 19 times, I got a lot of questions. I'm glad that Patton decided to create this topic. I plan on using it. A lot.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 07:36 AM)
QUOTE (samy0 @ Jan 10 2008, 07:27 AM)
Wow. That didn't take long
Samy, not to sound like YosSquad, but the purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to others who have, or still are reading this Wonderous [sic] book.
Bent- I'm curious what [sic] means?
The Bible, is an interpretation of a foreign archaic language. Most accepted interpretations of the Bible come to us from King James.
References to common words that we use today, may or may not have had the same meaning when the Bible was interpreted.
If discussions of the Bible are to have any merit, perhaps we should preface our comments as to which interpretation of the Bible we are using.
I don't accept "son" in this cite as the related child begat of a man and woman, but rather as a "criminal" member of society. The father and mother could in fact be a reference to government. Perhaps King and Queen? And the "son" being one of the monarchy's subjects.
References to common words that we use today, may or may not have had the same meaning when the Bible was interpreted.
If discussions of the Bible are to have any merit, perhaps we should preface our comments as to which interpretation of the Bible we are using.
I don't accept "son" in this cite as the related child begat of a man and woman, but rather as a "criminal" member of society. The father and mother could in fact be a reference to government. Perhaps King and Queen? And the "son" being one of the monarchy's subjects.
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 08:22 AM)
The Bible, is an interpretation of a foreign archaic language. Most accepted interpretations of the Bible come to us from King James.
References to common words that we use today, may or may not have had the same meaning when the Bible was interpreted.
If discussions of the Bible are to have any merit, perhaps we should preface our comments as to which interpretation of the Bible we are using.
I don't accept "son" in this cite as the related child begat of a man and woman, but rather as a "criminal" member of society. The father and mother could in fact be a reference to government. Perhaps King and Queen? And the "son" being one of the monarchy's subjects.
References to common words that we use today, may or may not have had the same meaning when the Bible was interpreted.
If discussions of the Bible are to have any merit, perhaps we should preface our comments as to which interpretation of the Bible we are using.
I don't accept "son" in this cite as the related child begat of a man and woman, but rather as a "criminal" member of society. The father and mother could in fact be a reference to government. Perhaps King and Queen? And the "son" being one of the monarchy's subjects.
If you had bothered to actually click on the link I provided, you would have seen that the portion of the Bible that I quoted came from the NIV translation. Not one word of the NIV comes from the KJV. The old testiment portions of the NIV came from the Masoretic (sp?) text. The same text is quite clear that there is a distinction between King/father and Queen/mother. If Deuteronomy 21:18-21 was about Kings and Queens having their subjects stoned for being too stubborn, it would have said so. Instead, it refers to "son". The same word used when Abraham took his son Ismael to be sacrificed.
Patton, Everything that is in the bible I read is also in yours though not the other way around. I only mention this in response to Bent's question and not to infer that mine is in anyway better. If this post offends you I will delete it.
Bent, I'm not familiar with what Deuteronomy says about the relationship between parents and their children but in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus said...
I understand this to mean that as parents we should let our children try to find their own way in life but that we should be there to pick them up when they fall and to love them and to forgive them just like God does with his children. This makes more sense to me and I'm sure it does to you as well so I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the rocks.
Bent, I'm not familiar with what Deuteronomy says about the relationship between parents and their children but in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus said...
QUOTE
39 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
40 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
41 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
42 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
43 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
44 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
45 But when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
46 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
47 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
48 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
49 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
50 But the father said to his servants, Bring forthwith the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
51 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
52 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
53 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.
54 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
55 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
56 But he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and entreated him.
57 But he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
58 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
59 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
60 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
40 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
41 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
42 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
43 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
44 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
45 But when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
46 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
47 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
48 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
49 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
50 But the father said to his servants, Bring forthwith the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
51 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
52 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
53 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.
54 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
55 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
56 But he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and entreated him.
57 But he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
58 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
59 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
60 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
I understand this to mean that as parents we should let our children try to find their own way in life but that we should be there to pick them up when they fall and to love them and to forgive them just like God does with his children. This makes more sense to me and I'm sure it does to you as well so I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the rocks.
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 08:40 AM)
Patton, Everything that is in the bible I read is also in yours though not the other way around. I only mention this in response to Bent's question and not to infer that mine is in anyway better. If this post offends you I will delete it.
Bent, I'm not familiar with what Deuteronomy says about the relationship between parents and their children but in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus said...
I understand this to mean that as parents we should let our children try to find their own way in life but that we should be there to pick them up when they fall and to love them and to forgive them just like God does with his children. This makes more sense to me and I'm sure it does to you as well so I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the rocks.
Bent, I'm not familiar with what Deuteronomy says about the relationship between parents and their children but in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus said...
QUOTE
39 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
40 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
41 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
42 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
43 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
44 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
45 But when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
46 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
47 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
48 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
49 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
50 But the father said to his servants, Bring forthwith the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
51 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
52 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
53 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.
54 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
55 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
56 But he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and entreated him.
57 But he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
58 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
59 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
60 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
40 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
41 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
42 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
43 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
44 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
45 But when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
46 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
47 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
48 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
49 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
50 But the father said to his servants, Bring forthwith the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
51 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
52 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
53 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.
54 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
55 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
56 But he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and entreated him.
57 But he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
58 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
59 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
60 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
I understand this to mean that as parents we should let our children try to find their own way in life but that we should be there to pick them up when they fall and to love them and to forgive them just like God does with his children. This makes more sense to me and I'm sure it does to you as well so I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the rocks.
Hear, Hear!! Stands and applauds!! I agree.
From what I understand, the Old Testament is a picture of people living under THE LAW. Respect for elders was utmost important in their culture. You break the law, you pay!! Eye for an eye.
In the New Testament, from my understanding, Jesus pays the penalty for all of us and this provides protection from THE LAW. We are now under grace and can be forgiven and extend forgiveness. And, of course, I would imagine it could have been extended in the Old Testament times, as well. But, the law was set and parents could punish as stated. Gosh, haven't we all wanted to "stone" our rebellious teens at one time or another. (Just trying to lighten up a harsh topic! )
Don't get all nasty with me bent.
I gave an opinion. I'm not a Biblical scholar and I don't pretend to be one. Admittedly, I've never read the Bible. I consider it a work of fiction for the most part. Stories passed down orally from generation to generation and then finally written down.
While some parts of it may be based on actual events, I'm sure the details of those events have been stretched over time.
If some people want to base their faith and or religion on the Bible, it's fine with me.
I've always felt that for anything written in the Bible, you can find another passage that contradicts.
I'm sure most of the regular posters here have never read the Bible cover to cover, so I guess that lets you be the expert.
But reading the Bible 19 times does not make you a scholar.
I gave an opinion. I'm not a Biblical scholar and I don't pretend to be one. Admittedly, I've never read the Bible. I consider it a work of fiction for the most part. Stories passed down orally from generation to generation and then finally written down.
While some parts of it may be based on actual events, I'm sure the details of those events have been stretched over time.
If some people want to base their faith and or religion on the Bible, it's fine with me.
I've always felt that for anything written in the Bible, you can find another passage that contradicts.
I'm sure most of the regular posters here have never read the Bible cover to cover, so I guess that lets you be the expert.
But reading the Bible 19 times does not make you a scholar.
See my point Bent? You do tend to come off a little pompous at times. Stop trying so hard 
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 08:53 AM)
Don't get all nasty with me bent.
I gave an opinion. I'm not a Biblical scholar and I don't pretend to be one. Admittedly, I've never read the Bible. I consider it a work of fiction for the most part. Stories passed down orally from generation to generation and then finally written down.
I gave an opinion. I'm not a Biblical scholar and I don't pretend to be one. Admittedly, I've never read the Bible. I consider it a work of fiction for the most part. Stories passed down orally from generation to generation and then finally written down.
Then maybe this topic isn't for you. If you had read Patton's disclaimer, you would have noticed that the purpose of this thread is for those of us who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to others who have, or still are reading the Bible. I've found the more I read the Bible, the more questions I have.
It's kinda hard to have a discussion about this when you inject false statments into the discussion such as that the NIV translation is based on the KJV or that Kings/Queens are interchangeable with Father/Mother.
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 08:40 AM)
Bent, I'm not familiar with what Deuteronomy says about the relationship between parents and their children but in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus said...
Id, I totally know what you mean. I would bring this up with my instructors. Much of what I read in the Old Testament would not only conflict with the New Testament, it took on a totally different tone. The problem I always ran into is that not only were we to adhere to the New Testament, but the Old Testament as well. For instance, the passages in the Old Testament that spoke of the evils of homosexuality.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 09:00 AM)
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 08:53 AM)
Don't get all nasty with me bent.
I gave an opinion. I'm not a Biblical scholar and I don't pretend to be one. Admittedly, I've never read the Bible. I consider it a work of fiction for the most part. Stories passed down orally from generation to generation and then finally written down.
Then maybe this topic isn't for you. If you had read Patton's disclaimer, you would have noticed that the purpose of this thread is for those of us who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to others who have, or still are reading the Bible. I've found the more I read the Bible, the more questions I have.
It's kinda hard to have a discussion about this when you inject false statments into the discussion such as that the NIV translation is based on the KJV or that Kings/Queens are interchangeable with Father/Mother.
Ok, let me stoke that tremendous ego of yours some more.
My discussions are in line with Patton's disclaimer. I welcome intelligent criticism of my opinions. I'm here to learn about the Bible. I injected no false statements, if you noticed I gave an "opinion".
so kma.
QUOTE (samy0 @ Jan 10 2008, 08:58 AM)
See my point Bent? You do tend to come off a little pompous at times. Stop trying so hard
No, not really. I remember you thought I was high-strung, but I don't remember you saying you thought I was pompous.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 09:17 AM)
QUOTE (samy0 @ Jan 10 2008, 08:58 AM)
See my point Bent? You do tend to come off a little pompous at times. Stop trying so hard
No, not really. I remember you thought I was high-strung, but I don't remember you saying you thought I was pompous.
Well as long as its not just me that sees it i can live with it
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 09:11 AM)
My discussions are in line with Patton's disclaimer. I welcome intelligent criticism of my opinions. I'm here to learn about the Bible. I injected no false statements, if you noticed I gave an "opinion".
so kma.
so kma.
But you said you've never read the Bible.
Patton made it clear that this topic was for people who have read the Bible and who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to others who have or still are reading it. It not for people like you who want to argue that it's a work of fiction. One of the false statements you tried to inject into this topic was that the NIV translation was based on the old KJV translation of the Bible. This is not true. Even the New Testament portion of the NIV was translated from the Greek texts.
It's hard to take your opinion about the translation of Father/Mother to be the same as King/Queen when you claim to have never read the Bible.
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 09:11 AM)
so kma.
I didn't even see this the first time. That's really not very nice. I assume that it means for me to kiss a part of your anatomy that is used for sitting down. Is that something you really want? For a man to place his lips on your backside? I can honestly say that in my 43 years, I have never asked another man to put any part of his body anywhere on my body. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
If you had ever read the Old Testament, you would know that such activity is not tolerated.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 09:30 AM)
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 09:11 AM)
so kma.
I didn't even see this the first time. That's really not very nice. I assume that it means for me to kiss a part of your anatomy that is used for sitting down. Is that something you really want? For a man to place his lips on your backside? I can honestly say that in my 43 years, I have never asked another man to put any part of his body anywhere on my body. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
If you had ever read the Old Testament, you would know that such activity is not tolerated.
Numbers, if i am not mistaken.... right in between "the lord you god spaketh unto you not to lay with your mule as your would your wife" and the sitting in the river for a week if you have a sheisty looking zit. <3
QUOTE
and the sitting in the river for a week if you have a sheisty looking zit. <3
It may seem extreme to us, but I think the Jewish people had a really good grasp for cleanliness and disease prevention. Anyone with a suspcious sore was isolated until they were able to figure out what was up. Good practice in a culture without anti-biotics, don't you think??
So were their eating practices.... no shellfish... well there was no refrigeration either and we all know what can happen with spoiled shell fish! Not to mention allergies.
And we have to remember, IMO, that the Jewish people were waiting/longing for their Messiah to be born from one of their own. They had to be especially careful so as not to allow a disease to wipe out the Chosen People.
QUOTE (Patton @ Jan 10 2008, 06:35 AM)
DISCLAIMER: If you will look were this thread has been placed you will see it is about READING the BIBLE. This thread will not be used to argue the merits, or lack thereof, of those proclaiming to be Gods Children. All are welcome, TO DISCUSS THE BIBLE.
I am starting this thread because I am once again reading the Bible, this time, I hope, with more love and understanding in my heart. The purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to other who have, or still are reading this Wonderous book. Thank you.
I am starting this thread because I am once again reading the Bible, this time, I hope, with more love and understanding in my heart. The purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to other who have, or still are reading this Wonderous book. Thank you.
Putting a disclaimer in........what a concept. Love it...........
Here's a wiseacre question: God's children as in Persephone or Hercules? What about those claiming to be God's spouse or sibling?
Here's a serious question: Where in the bible does it say God has children? Abraham has children.....but God?
QUOTE (siriunsun @ Jan 10 2008, 09:47 AM)
QUOTE (Patton @ Jan 10 2008, 06:35 AM)
DISCLAIMER: If you will look were this thread has been placed you will see it is about READING the BIBLE. This thread will not be used to argue the merits, or lack thereof, of those proclaiming to be Gods Children. All are welcome, TO DISCUSS THE BIBLE.
I am starting this thread because I am once again reading the Bible, this time, I hope, with more love and understanding in my heart. The purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to other who have, or still are reading this Wonderous book. Thank you.
I am starting this thread because I am once again reading the Bible, this time, I hope, with more love and understanding in my heart. The purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to other who have, or still are reading this Wonderous book. Thank you.
Putting a disclaimer in........what a concept. Love it...........
Here's a wiseacre question: God's children as in Persephone or Hercules? What about those claiming to be God's spouse or sibling?
Here's a serious question: Where in the bible does it say God has children? Abraham has children.....but God?
i think its more a catchphrase ... like... "children of god"... i *think* the dealio was when followers of the one God had children, they had to like, dedicate them?? to god... like when abraham ( i think ) was supposed to kill his kid, and then god sent an angel to stop him?? one of those "the thought that counts" sort of thing... and i think it was reiterrated in the new testament when jesus was teaching them to pray ( later became the our father prayer/ the lords prayer) and he kicked it off by saying "abba/father." i could be totally off, here, and i sort of hope someone has a better explaination... thats just sort of how i understood it...
QUOTE (Checkingin @ Jan 10 2008, 09:43 AM)
It may seem extreme to us, but I think the Jewish people had a really good grasp for cleanliness and disease prevention. Anyone with a suspcious sore was isolated until they were able to figure out what was up. Good practice in a culture without anti-biotics, don't you think??
Sometimes it’s easy to forget how nice it is to have simple antibiotics at our disposal. Back in the day, a simple infection could kill you dead.
One of the biggest drawbacks of living in the ancient times had to be not having access to ice. Can you imagine going your whole life without having a cool drink on a hot day?
QUOTE (theBurninator @ Jan 10 2008, 10:52 AM)
QUOTE (siriunsun @ Jan 10 2008, 09:47 AM)
QUOTE (Patton @ Jan 10 2008, 06:35 AM)
DISCLAIMER: If you will look were this thread has been placed you will see it is about READING the BIBLE. This thread will not be used to argue the merits, or lack thereof, of those proclaiming to be Gods Children. All are welcome, TO DISCUSS THE BIBLE.
I am starting this thread because I am once again reading the Bible, this time, I hope, with more love and understanding in my heart. The purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to other who have, or still are reading this Wonderous book. Thank you.
I am starting this thread because I am once again reading the Bible, this time, I hope, with more love and understanding in my heart. The purpose of this thread is for those who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to other who have, or still are reading this Wonderous book. Thank you.
Putting a disclaimer in........what a concept. Love it...........
Here's a wiseacre question: God's children as in Persephone or Hercules? What about those claiming to be God's spouse or sibling?
Here's a serious question: Where in the bible does it say God has children? Abraham has children.....but God?
i think its more a catchphrase ... like... "children of god"... i *think* the dealio was when followers of the one God had children, they had to like, dedicate them?? to god... like when abraham ( i think ) was supposed to kill his kid, and then god sent an angel to stop him?? one of those "the thought that counts" sort of thing... and i think it was reiterrated in the new testament when jesus was teaching them to pray ( later became the our father prayer/ the lords prayer) and he kicked it off by saying "abba/father." i could be totally off, here, and i sort of hope someone has a better explaination... thats just sort of how i understood it...
Oh that's right! I had forgotton about the "Our Father"!
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 09:52 AM)
QUOTE (Checkingin @ Jan 10 2008, 09:43 AM)
It may seem extreme to us, but I think the Jewish people had a really good grasp for cleanliness and disease prevention. Anyone with a suspcious sore was isolated until they were able to figure out what was up. Good practice in a culture without anti-biotics, don't you think??
Sometimes it’s easy to forget how nice it is to have simple antibiotics at our disposal. Back in the day, a simple infection could kill you dead.
One of the biggest drawbacks of living in the ancient times had to be not having access to ice. Can you imagine going your whole life without having a cool drink on a hot day?
Yeah, and I believe that is why the High Priests would drain the blood of an animal before it was to be eaten. To make it "kosher". Much less likely for food poisioning.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 10:52 AM)
QUOTE (Checkingin @ Jan 10 2008, 09:43 AM)
It may seem extreme to us, but I think the Jewish people had a really good grasp for cleanliness and disease prevention. Anyone with a suspcious sore was isolated until they were able to figure out what was up. Good practice in a culture without anti-biotics, don't you think??
Sometimes it's easy to forget how nice it is to have simple antibiotics at our disposal. Back in the day, a simple infection could kill you dead.
One of the biggest drawbacks of living in the ancient times had to be not having access to ice. Can you imagine going your whole life without having a cool drink on a hot day?
Not to completely hijack the thread, Bent, but an infection could kill you dead now. Especially if you are in unfamiliar territory and suddenly get sick and the bug is resistant to antibiotics. Ethnocentrism and mistrust of other cultures actually played a useful role in infection control back in biblical times.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 09:10 AM)
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 08:40 AM)
Bent, I'm not familiar with what Deuteronomy says about the relationship between parents and their children but in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus said...
Id, I totally know what you mean. I would bring this up with my instructors. Much of what I read in the Old Testament would not only conflict with the New Testament, it took on a totally different tone. The problem I always ran into is that not only were we to adhere to the New Testament, but the Old Testament as well. For instance, the passages in the Old Testament that spoke of the evils of homosexuality.
Why do you need instructors? God gave us all brains and the power to reason. I've read many parts of the bible. Some things I find to be undeniably true and others hogwash. No amount of instructing is likely to change my mind on either. I take what lessons I can from the former and forget the latter.
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 10:58 AM)
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 09:10 AM)
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 08:40 AM)
Bent, I'm not familiar with what Deuteronomy says about the relationship between parents and their children but in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus said...
Id, I totally know what you mean. I would bring this up with my instructors. Much of what I read in the Old Testament would not only conflict with the New Testament, it took on a totally different tone. The problem I always ran into is that not only were we to adhere to the New Testament, but the Old Testament as well. For instance, the passages in the Old Testament that spoke of the evils of homosexuality.
Why do you need instructors? God gave us all brains and the power to reason. I've read many parts of the bible. Some things I find to be undeniably true and others hogwash. No amount of instructing is likely to change my mind on either. I take what lessons I can from the former and forget the latter.
We need officiators at weddings and funerals.
QUOTE (siriunsun @ Jan 10 2008, 09:56 AM)
Not to completely hijack the thread, Bent, but an infection could kill you dead now. Especially if you are in unfamiliar territory and suddenly get sick and the bug is resistant to antibiotics. Ethnocentrism and mistrust of other cultures actually played a useful role in infection control back in biblical times.
Oh, I know. But back then, even a simple infection would kill you.
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 09:58 AM)
Why do you need instructors? God gave us all brains and the power to reason. I've read many parts of the bible. Some things I find to be undeniably true and others hogwash. No amount of instructing is likely to change my mind on either. I take what lessons I can from the former and forget the latter.
Oh, it wasn't by choice. Like many kids, I had to attend Bible classes and instruction. Not just during the week, but during the summer where we would go away for a week at a time. Have you watched the documentary Jesus Camp? It brought back some memories...
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 09:58 AM)
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 09:10 AM)
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 08:40 AM)
Bent, I'm not familiar with what Deuteronomy says about the relationship between parents and their children but in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus said...
Id, I totally know what you mean. I would bring this up with my instructors. Much of what I read in the Old Testament would not only conflict with the New Testament, it took on a totally different tone. The problem I always ran into is that not only were we to adhere to the New Testament, but the Old Testament as well. For instance, the passages in the Old Testament that spoke of the evils of homosexuality.
Why do you need instructors? God gave us all brains and the power to reason. I've read many parts of the bible. Some things I find to be undeniably true and others hogwash. No amount of instructing is likely to change my mind on either. I take what lessons I can from the former and forget the latter.
i think the dealio with the bible, is that there are a lot of fact based stories in there ( for example... anyone noticed most major religions have a great flood story??) but in the same way jesus often spoke in parables, and other major religios texts use parables, analogies, etc... much of the bible must be that way too... never intended as a historical document,... also we have to keep in mind that there was a lot of cencorship when compiling what we now know as the bible... i recommend anyone getting a hold of some of the books that were left OUT of the bible... tell the same story with a slightly different angle... even stories of jesus pushing his friend off a roof.... when he was like 5... very interesting.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 10:04 AM)
Have you watched the documentary Jesus Camp?
i just dvr'd that about a week ago and havent watched it yet.... i'll get to it this weekend.... iw as really looking forward to it... i caught about the first 5 mins...
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 09:58 AM)
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 09:10 AM)
QUOTE (Idiot @ Jan 10 2008, 08:40 AM)
Bent, I'm not familiar with what Deuteronomy says about the relationship between parents and their children but in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus said...
Id, I totally know what you mean. I would bring this up with my instructors. Much of what I read in the Old Testament would not only conflict with the New Testament, it took on a totally different tone. The problem I always ran into is that not only were we to adhere to the New Testament, but the Old Testament as well. For instance, the passages in the Old Testament that spoke of the evils of homosexuality.
Why do you need instructors? God gave us all brains and the power to reason. I've read many parts of the bible. Some things I find to be undeniably true and others hogwash. No amount of instructing is likely to change my mind on either. I take what lessons I can from the former and forget the latter.
I totally agree with the God gave us brains part, at least most days! But, I've seen that people who study the language can get some more insight into what is trying to be taught. Like, someone once told me that the scripture in the Old Testament in Genesis, that says "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" (and no, I don't want the evolutionists to debate this, been there!) But my point is, that the word for God, in the original language, was actually translated as a God that was one entity but plural.... like the trinity. So, it could be said that "In the beginning, We created the heavens and the earth". Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
so, bent... why aren't you complaining about all the others taking this off topic.
obviously, you don't like me...
btw... where did i say the NIV and KJV were the same?
If you can interpret the Bible the way you want to, why can't others do the same?
If you're a biblical scholar... let's see the credentials.
Okay.... sorry for the sidetrack Patton... maybe bent can forgive his misunderstanding of my posts.
::polishes the chip on bent's shoulder::
obviously, you don't like me...
btw... where did i say the NIV and KJV were the same?
If you can interpret the Bible the way you want to, why can't others do the same?
If you're a biblical scholar... let's see the credentials.
Okay.... sorry for the sidetrack Patton... maybe bent can forgive his misunderstanding of my posts.
::polishes the chip on bent's shoulder::
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 10:28 AM)
so, bent... why aren't you complaining about all the others taking this off topic.
obviously, you don't like me...
btw... where did i say the NIV and KJV were the same?
If you can interpret the Bible the way you want to, why can't others do the same?
If you're a biblical scholar... let's see the credentials.
Okay.... sorry for the sidetrack Patton... maybe bent can forgive his misunderstanding of my posts.
::polishes the chip on bent's shoulder::
obviously, you don't like me...
btw... where did i say the NIV and KJV were the same?
If you can interpret the Bible the way you want to, why can't others do the same?
If you're a biblical scholar... let's see the credentials.
Okay.... sorry for the sidetrack Patton... maybe bent can forgive his misunderstanding of my posts.
::polishes the chip on bent's shoulder::
You said that most of the "accepted" interpretations of the Bible came from King James. That's not really true. If you had actually gone to the link I provided, you would have seen the source of the scripture I provided came from the NIV translation. It's the one I've read from the most.
You are certainly free to interpret the Bible, but it would be a lot more credible if you were to actually read the Bible first. Something I believe you said you've never done.
And I'm not a Biblical scholar. I've just read the Bible many, many times. I've also attended many classes on the Bible. It's a book I'm very familiar with.
I have no chip on my shoulder. I just know how you like to remind others when they are posting to a topic and you feel their post falls outside the stated purpose of the topic. I think this is one of the reasons some people here think you are still a moderator. Personally, I would prefer to keep the forums free of this middle-school hallway monitor type of activity. I for one will stop doing it. I hope you will do the same.
I accept your apology Yossarian. Let's agree to put it behind us.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 07:11 AM)
Great topic! I look forward to not only reading, but contributing. I guess I will go ahead and start.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
When the elders proceed to stone the stubborn and rebellious son, do they take turns throwing the rocks until the kid is dead or do they all just unload on him at once? Do they bring their own rocks, or are the parents responsible for not only bringing their stubborn child, but the rocks too? I've always wondered about this.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him,
19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.
20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard."
21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
When the elders proceed to stone the stubborn and rebellious son, do they take turns throwing the rocks until the kid is dead or do they all just unload on him at once? Do they bring their own rocks, or are the parents responsible for not only bringing their stubborn child, but the rocks too? I've always wondered about this.
Who do you think supplies the rocks.
I'm not trying to deflect this, however, this appears to be an attempt to "trap" believers. If it is not, I apologize.
I am interested in your perspective.
Agreed on the middle school crap. I will treat you with respect if I can expect the same. You have some interesting views on many subjects, and believe it or not, I enjoy reading your views. I certainly gain a whole other perspective on the way you see things (this is not meant as a put-down, but as a sincere and respectful comment).
And I too, accept your apology.
:offers virtual hand-shake::
And I too, accept your apology.
:offers virtual hand-shake::
Group hug?
Yuck!
Yuck!
Kumbaya time!!
I was thinking more along the lines of "MILLER TIME"!
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 11:07 AM)
Agreed on the middle school crap. I will treat you with respect if I can expect the same. You have some interesting views on many subjects, and believe it or not, I enjoy reading your views. I certainly gain a whole other perspective on the way you see things (this is not meant as a put-down, but as a sincere and respectful comment).
And I too, accept your apology.
:offers virtual hand-shake::
And I too, accept your apology.
:offers virtual hand-shake::
And I accept your virtual hand-shake and respond with a slap on the back. Virtually speaking.
I promise to treat you with respect too. And I mean an actual promise. Not like when I said I wasn't going to post here anymore when Patton got suspended, but I actually promise this.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 09:26 AM)
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 09:11 AM)
My discussions are in line with Patton's disclaimer. I welcome intelligent criticism of my opinions. I'm here to learn about the Bible. I injected no false statements, if you noticed I gave an "opinion".
so kma.
so kma.
But you said you've never read the Bible.
Patton made it clear that this topic was for people who have read the Bible and who have questions about the BIBLE to pose them to others who have or still are reading it. It not for people like you who want to argue that it's a work of fiction. One of the false statements you tried to inject into this topic was that the NIV translation was based on the old KJV translation of the Bible. This is not true. Even the New Testament portion of the NIV was translated from the Greek texts.
It's hard to take your opinion about the translation of Father/Mother to be the same as King/Queen when you claim to have never read the Bible.
I can and will adjust my initial statement to be inclusive.
QUOTE (Bentcorner @ Jan 10 2008, 11:17 AM)
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 11:07 AM)
Agreed on the middle school crap. I will treat you with respect if I can expect the same. You have some interesting views on many subjects, and believe it or not, I enjoy reading your views. I certainly gain a whole other perspective on the way you see things (this is not meant as a put-down, but as a sincere and respectful comment).
And I too, accept your apology.
:offers virtual hand-shake::
And I too, accept your apology.
:offers virtual hand-shake::
And I accept your virtual hand-shake and respond with a slap on the back. Virtually speaking.
I promise to treat you with respect too. And I mean an actual promise. Not like when I said I wasn't going to post here anymore when Patton got suspended, but I actually promise this.
That actually gave me a chuckle...
::checks to make sure that slap on the back didn't include a knife:: just kidding!
thanks.
of course that doesn't mean we can't respectfully disagree with each other.
If I'm to follow the teachings of the Bible, should I follow the Old Testament or the New Testament?
The only way you will ever know the True Truth is to read Gods word the Bible. I said this in my Topic you can NOT rely on the word of Man Kind or you will remain confuessed. NO Christian will ever fully understand everything or know everything all of our unanswered questions will be answered when we die.
THE TRUE TRUTH IS COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE
With the incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, God’s revelation to man is complete and final. It cannot be changed. There is no more to be added. Jesus Christ is the goal and fulfilment of all of God’s previous self-revelation. He is the unveiling of all that God had kept hidden. He is God’s wisdom. He is God’s ‘mystery’, now revealed. With his coming God’s plans and purposes for the world were put into effect. There is no more revelation pending. Even that final consummation of God’s purposes yet to be fulfilled in the return of Christ and the final judgment does not require any addition or alteration to the truth already revealed. Any ignorance we have in the present is not due to a deficiency or incompleteness in God’s self-revelation, but simply to a deficiency in our human ability to fully understand the infinite God. His self-revelation is complete: we are in the process of learning and understanding what he has revealed.
This finality and completeness of God’s self-revelation in the Scriptures is indicated in the following:
Romans 16:25-26: ‘Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him ...’
1 Corinthians 1:23,24; 2:7: ‘we preach Christ crucified … Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. … We speak God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began… God has revealed it to us by his Spirit’
Colossians 1:25-2:3: ‘… to present to you the word of God in its fullness – the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. …so that you may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.’
Hebrews 1:1,2: ‘In the past God spoke through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son’.
The Bible clearly presents Jesus Christ as God’s final self-revelation, the focal point and climax of God’s self-revelation, God’s final and ultimate Word. When we understand that
Jesus Christ is ‘the Word’ [John 1:1,14]
Jesus Christ is God in human flesh, to see him is to see God and to know him is to know God [John 12:45; 14:7-9];
in him all the fullness of God dwelt in bodily form [Colossians 1:19; 2:9];
he himself is ‘the truth’ [John 14:6];
in him God’s final, once-for-all salvation has been implemented [Hebrews 9:26],
- when we understand this significance and centrality of Jesus Christ, we also understand with great clarity that not only is there no need for any additional revelation, but that there is nothing more to be revealed. The Son has revealed the Father: there is nothing more about God to be revealed. The Son has implemented complete salvation: there is nothing more about salvation to be revealed this side of the ultimate state.
Thus the true truth, the true gospel, is grounded in and bounded by the ‘prophets’ [the Old Testament which anticipated the incarnation, life, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Christ] and the ‘apostles’ [the New Testament, which looks back upon and records the facts and the meaning of the incarnation, life, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Christ]. Just as the Old Testament prophets were men selected and empowered by God to write the anticipatory message about Christ, so the New Testament apostles were entrusted and appointed by God to teach and record how God revealed himself and fulfilled his purposes in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:4: ‘we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel’
1Thessalonians 2:13: ‘when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe’.
2 Thessalonians 2:15: ‘stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter’
1 Timothy 1:11: ‘the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me’
1 Timothy 2:7: ‘I was appointed a herald and an apostle … and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles’.
2 Timothy 1:13: ‘What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching’.
2 Timothy 3:14-15: ‘Continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of because you know those from whom you learned it, and from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.’
Titus 1:1-3: ‘Paul … an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth … a faith and knowledge that rests on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Saviour’
Titus 1:9: ‘He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it’.
Hebrews 2:1-4: ‘We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard … This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Spirit distributed according to his will.’
1 Peter 1:10: ‘the prophets … spoke of the grace that was to come’
2 Peter 1:16-2:1: ‘We did not follow cleverly invented stories … we were eyewitnesses of his majesty …we ourselves heard his voice … and we have the word of the prophets … a light shining in a dark place … no prophecy of Scripture came by the prophet’s own interpretation …no prophecy had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit …’
2 Peter 3:2: ‘I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Saviour through your apostles.’
1 John 1:1-3: ‘That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched – this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard …’
Revelation 21:14: ‘The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.’
Thus God’s truth is spoken of as a given - a body of teaching that comprises ‘the truth’, ‘the word of God’, that must not be added to or altered, the essential truth to which the New Testament writers consistently recall their readers and us. In the context of opposing or exposing error, this body of absolute and final truth is called:
‘the truth’ [Romans 1:18; Galatians 2:5,14; 2 Timothy 2:18; 3:8; 4:4; Titus 1:14; James 5:19; 3 John 3,4]
‘the knowledge of God [Romans 1:28]
‘the mind of Christ’ [1 Corinthians 2:15]
‘the word of God’ [2 Corinthians 4:2]
‘the gospel of Christ’ (or similar) [Galatians 1:7; 1 Timothy 1:11]
‘the message of the Lord’ [2 Thessalonians 3:1]
‘sound doctrine’ [1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3]
‘the deep truths of the faith’ [1 Timothy 3:9]
‘the word of truth’ [2 Timothy 2:15]
‘God’s solid foundation’ [2 Timothy 2:19]
‘the Word’ [2 Timothy 4:2]
‘the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints’ [Jude 3]
In context, all of these assume that God’s self-revelation is complete, and that ‘the truth’ is now available to all through the proclamation of Christ. Of particular note among these references to this static, complete body of truth are the following:
2 Timothy 2:19: ‘Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm …’
Jude 3: ‘contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints’
The foundation on which all of faith and life is to be built is in place. It has been delivered to us ‘once for all’. There is nothing more to add. All that God wants us to know is there in the truth about his Son, anticipated by the prophetic word of the Old Testament and recorded and explained in the message entrusted to the apostles – the New Testament. Note that the ‘foundation’ is not a foundation of truth upon which we put more truth, but rather the foundation of truth upon which our relationship with God and our lives are to be based.
FALSE TEACHING REPLACES, ADDS TO, OR ALTERS THE MEANING OF, THE ‘TRUTH’
False teaching, on the contrary, does not view the ‘truth’ as absolute, complete and final. The writers of the New Testament letters expose and challenge false teachers regarding their wrong attitudes to ‘the truth’:
suppression of the truth [Romans 1:18]
swapping the truth for lies [Romans 1:25; 2 Timothy 4:4]
distorting the word of God [2 Corinthians 4:2]
teaching a different ‘Jesus’, a different ‘spirit’, and a different ‘gospel’ [2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6]
perverting the gospel of Christ [Galatians 1:7]
teaching what is contrary to the sound doctrine and the gospel [Galatians 2:14; 1 Timothy 1:10,11; 6:3,4]
wandering away from the truth [2 Timothy 1:18; James 5:19; 2 Peter 2:15]
opposing the truth [2 Timothy 3:8]
won’t put up with sound doctrine but believe whatever pleases them [2 Timothy 4:3]
rejecting the truth [Titus 1:14].
teaching what doesn’t agree with sound instruction [1Timothy 6:3-4].
Each of these attitudes to the truth and actions done to the truth reveal a lack of respect for the truth as a given, non-negotiable, fixed body of truth. Thus the false teachers and those who believe them have a completely different attitude to the truth than the attitude held by the prophets and apostles. In fact the false teachers of the New Testament era have a great similarity to the false prophets of the Old Testament in their attitude to the truth.
According to the New Testament writers, false teaching [teaching that is different from the original message, either by reinterpretation, alteration, subtraction or addition] had its origin in a number of sources, none of which was God:
Hollow and deceptive philosophy that depends on human tradition and the basic principles of the world rather than on Christ [Colossians 2:8,20]
Visions [Colossians 2:18]
Human commands, teachings, made up stories [Colossians 2:22; 1 Timothy 4:2; 2 Peter 2:3]
Error, impure motives, trickery [1Thessalonians 2:3]
Greed [1 Thessalonians 2:5]
Desire for human praise [1 Thessalonians 2:6]
Demons and deceiving spirits [1 Timothy 4:1]
Christians who were subjected to these wrong attitudes to and alterations of the truth were commanded by the New Testament writers to return to the original, solid foundation on which their faith was grounded:
1 Corinthians 4:6: ‘Do not go beyond what is written.’
1 John 2:24: ‘See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you’
Revelation 3:3: ‘Remember … what you have received and heard.’
CONCLUSION
The fundamental difference between ‘the truth’ and false teaching is that, while the Bible presents itself as complete, absolute and final, false teachers do not regard the truth contained in the Bible as complete, absolute, final and unchanging. Invariably false teaching in some way and to some degree replaces, re-interprets, alters, adds to or subtracts from biblical truth.
In a perverse ironical twist, some false teachers commonly assert that what they teach must be believed! Rejecting the rightful authority of the written word, they give authority to their own words, claiming those words to be the words of God, and threatening those who refuse to submit to their authority and their version of the truth.
THE TRUE TRUTH IS COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE
With the incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, God’s revelation to man is complete and final. It cannot be changed. There is no more to be added. Jesus Christ is the goal and fulfilment of all of God’s previous self-revelation. He is the unveiling of all that God had kept hidden. He is God’s wisdom. He is God’s ‘mystery’, now revealed. With his coming God’s plans and purposes for the world were put into effect. There is no more revelation pending. Even that final consummation of God’s purposes yet to be fulfilled in the return of Christ and the final judgment does not require any addition or alteration to the truth already revealed. Any ignorance we have in the present is not due to a deficiency or incompleteness in God’s self-revelation, but simply to a deficiency in our human ability to fully understand the infinite God. His self-revelation is complete: we are in the process of learning and understanding what he has revealed.
This finality and completeness of God’s self-revelation in the Scriptures is indicated in the following:
Romans 16:25-26: ‘Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him ...’
1 Corinthians 1:23,24; 2:7: ‘we preach Christ crucified … Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. … We speak God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began… God has revealed it to us by his Spirit’
Colossians 1:25-2:3: ‘… to present to you the word of God in its fullness – the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. …so that you may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.’
Hebrews 1:1,2: ‘In the past God spoke through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son’.
The Bible clearly presents Jesus Christ as God’s final self-revelation, the focal point and climax of God’s self-revelation, God’s final and ultimate Word. When we understand that
Jesus Christ is ‘the Word’ [John 1:1,14]
Jesus Christ is God in human flesh, to see him is to see God and to know him is to know God [John 12:45; 14:7-9];
in him all the fullness of God dwelt in bodily form [Colossians 1:19; 2:9];
he himself is ‘the truth’ [John 14:6];
in him God’s final, once-for-all salvation has been implemented [Hebrews 9:26],
- when we understand this significance and centrality of Jesus Christ, we also understand with great clarity that not only is there no need for any additional revelation, but that there is nothing more to be revealed. The Son has revealed the Father: there is nothing more about God to be revealed. The Son has implemented complete salvation: there is nothing more about salvation to be revealed this side of the ultimate state.
Thus the true truth, the true gospel, is grounded in and bounded by the ‘prophets’ [the Old Testament which anticipated the incarnation, life, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Christ] and the ‘apostles’ [the New Testament, which looks back upon and records the facts and the meaning of the incarnation, life, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Christ]. Just as the Old Testament prophets were men selected and empowered by God to write the anticipatory message about Christ, so the New Testament apostles were entrusted and appointed by God to teach and record how God revealed himself and fulfilled his purposes in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:4: ‘we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel’
1Thessalonians 2:13: ‘when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe’.
2 Thessalonians 2:15: ‘stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter’
1 Timothy 1:11: ‘the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me’
1 Timothy 2:7: ‘I was appointed a herald and an apostle … and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles’.
2 Timothy 1:13: ‘What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching’.
2 Timothy 3:14-15: ‘Continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of because you know those from whom you learned it, and from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.’
Titus 1:1-3: ‘Paul … an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth … a faith and knowledge that rests on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Saviour’
Titus 1:9: ‘He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it’.
Hebrews 2:1-4: ‘We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard … This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Spirit distributed according to his will.’
1 Peter 1:10: ‘the prophets … spoke of the grace that was to come’
2 Peter 1:16-2:1: ‘We did not follow cleverly invented stories … we were eyewitnesses of his majesty …we ourselves heard his voice … and we have the word of the prophets … a light shining in a dark place … no prophecy of Scripture came by the prophet’s own interpretation …no prophecy had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit …’
2 Peter 3:2: ‘I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Saviour through your apostles.’
1 John 1:1-3: ‘That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched – this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard …’
Revelation 21:14: ‘The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.’
Thus God’s truth is spoken of as a given - a body of teaching that comprises ‘the truth’, ‘the word of God’, that must not be added to or altered, the essential truth to which the New Testament writers consistently recall their readers and us. In the context of opposing or exposing error, this body of absolute and final truth is called:
‘the truth’ [Romans 1:18; Galatians 2:5,14; 2 Timothy 2:18; 3:8; 4:4; Titus 1:14; James 5:19; 3 John 3,4]
‘the knowledge of God [Romans 1:28]
‘the mind of Christ’ [1 Corinthians 2:15]
‘the word of God’ [2 Corinthians 4:2]
‘the gospel of Christ’ (or similar) [Galatians 1:7; 1 Timothy 1:11]
‘the message of the Lord’ [2 Thessalonians 3:1]
‘sound doctrine’ [1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3]
‘the deep truths of the faith’ [1 Timothy 3:9]
‘the word of truth’ [2 Timothy 2:15]
‘God’s solid foundation’ [2 Timothy 2:19]
‘the Word’ [2 Timothy 4:2]
‘the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints’ [Jude 3]
In context, all of these assume that God’s self-revelation is complete, and that ‘the truth’ is now available to all through the proclamation of Christ. Of particular note among these references to this static, complete body of truth are the following:
2 Timothy 2:19: ‘Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm …’
Jude 3: ‘contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints’
The foundation on which all of faith and life is to be built is in place. It has been delivered to us ‘once for all’. There is nothing more to add. All that God wants us to know is there in the truth about his Son, anticipated by the prophetic word of the Old Testament and recorded and explained in the message entrusted to the apostles – the New Testament. Note that the ‘foundation’ is not a foundation of truth upon which we put more truth, but rather the foundation of truth upon which our relationship with God and our lives are to be based.
FALSE TEACHING REPLACES, ADDS TO, OR ALTERS THE MEANING OF, THE ‘TRUTH’
False teaching, on the contrary, does not view the ‘truth’ as absolute, complete and final. The writers of the New Testament letters expose and challenge false teachers regarding their wrong attitudes to ‘the truth’:
suppression of the truth [Romans 1:18]
swapping the truth for lies [Romans 1:25; 2 Timothy 4:4]
distorting the word of God [2 Corinthians 4:2]
teaching a different ‘Jesus’, a different ‘spirit’, and a different ‘gospel’ [2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6]
perverting the gospel of Christ [Galatians 1:7]
teaching what is contrary to the sound doctrine and the gospel [Galatians 2:14; 1 Timothy 1:10,11; 6:3,4]
wandering away from the truth [2 Timothy 1:18; James 5:19; 2 Peter 2:15]
opposing the truth [2 Timothy 3:8]
won’t put up with sound doctrine but believe whatever pleases them [2 Timothy 4:3]
rejecting the truth [Titus 1:14].
teaching what doesn’t agree with sound instruction [1Timothy 6:3-4].
Each of these attitudes to the truth and actions done to the truth reveal a lack of respect for the truth as a given, non-negotiable, fixed body of truth. Thus the false teachers and those who believe them have a completely different attitude to the truth than the attitude held by the prophets and apostles. In fact the false teachers of the New Testament era have a great similarity to the false prophets of the Old Testament in their attitude to the truth.
According to the New Testament writers, false teaching [teaching that is different from the original message, either by reinterpretation, alteration, subtraction or addition] had its origin in a number of sources, none of which was God:
Hollow and deceptive philosophy that depends on human tradition and the basic principles of the world rather than on Christ [Colossians 2:8,20]
Visions [Colossians 2:18]
Human commands, teachings, made up stories [Colossians 2:22; 1 Timothy 4:2; 2 Peter 2:3]
Error, impure motives, trickery [1Thessalonians 2:3]
Greed [1 Thessalonians 2:5]
Desire for human praise [1 Thessalonians 2:6]
Demons and deceiving spirits [1 Timothy 4:1]
Christians who were subjected to these wrong attitudes to and alterations of the truth were commanded by the New Testament writers to return to the original, solid foundation on which their faith was grounded:
1 Corinthians 4:6: ‘Do not go beyond what is written.’
1 John 2:24: ‘See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you’
Revelation 3:3: ‘Remember … what you have received and heard.’
CONCLUSION
The fundamental difference between ‘the truth’ and false teaching is that, while the Bible presents itself as complete, absolute and final, false teachers do not regard the truth contained in the Bible as complete, absolute, final and unchanging. Invariably false teaching in some way and to some degree replaces, re-interprets, alters, adds to or subtracts from biblical truth.
In a perverse ironical twist, some false teachers commonly assert that what they teach must be believed! Rejecting the rightful authority of the written word, they give authority to their own words, claiming those words to be the words of God, and threatening those who refuse to submit to their authority and their version of the truth.
So what are you cutting and pasting that from?
And can you explain to us what that really says?
And can you explain to us what that really says?
QUOTE (Yossarian @ Jan 10 2008, 08:46 PM)
So what are you cutting and pasting that from?
And can you explain to us what that really says?
And can you explain to us what that really says?
From a Christian Bible Study. I'm trying to help others understand BUT I don't want to write anything that would steer them in the wrong direction. One wrong word for those who are trying to learn about the word of God can make a huge difference.
What it is saying/teaching is that what the Bible tells us is the Truth it can NOT be changed. It also is saying/teaching about the Old Testament and the New. How the Father sent his Son Jesus to live here on earth in the human flesh to die on the cross for our salvation. It goes on to say/teach how to steer away from false teaching. I'll say it again if we rely on the word of Mankind everything can get very confuessing.
If any of you would like me to post the link so you can read or look up things you don't understand I will be more than happy to do so. I don't have all the answers to every question that comes my way but i will help in any way i can.
QUOTE (Udmas @ Jan 10 2008, 06:35 PM)
If I'm to follow the teachings of the Bible, should I follow the Old Testament or the New Testament?
See Post #12, I believe that answers your query.
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