Did anyone read the story today of how good old western Maryland is about ready to get screwed again by our neighbors to the east?

http://www.herald-mail.com/?cmd=displaysto...amp;format=html

I graduated from the USM campus dowtown I would hate to see it close. It could be so much more than it is.

Tony

Tragic: We need to write, email, and call the Gov and our local State Senator.

It is a quality of life issue. No matter if we live in the city or county. Having a university is what some kids need to make it out of the dead-end job trap. Times have changed and we all need added training and education for today's job market. Otherwise, everyone will be sitting on thier stoop watching traffic go by.

I plan to go back to school. A local university, geared to diverse students (thinking age), is great for older students retooling their skills. Even local kids who may not have the resources to go away to school like USM. Not everyone can pick up and go to other campuses. USM Hagerstown lets working students fit school in between jobs and family obligations. It is a way out of the rut. One way to keep downtown moving up.

Also, the BOE just signed some deal to rent classroom space for the academic portion of the Arts High School School. So, a lot is riding on the downtown USM Hagerstown campus.

The problem is the counties to our east want to keep everything for themselves. Our local Senator isn't going to be much help the way it looked the entire delegation got blindsided by this.

Surely there is something citizens can do? Hmmm, thinking...Any ideas anyone?????? Maybe Drevin & Aldo will pipe up.

I look down below and thank Paperpusher, great idea. I will add the contact info to Paperpusher's tip.
OK Forum Members, this is it, something positive we can actually agree on. Contacting our representative. Even if you have no intention or need to access the university, there are some others in this county that should think about it. We can write for them. Heck, email is easy. (Maybe the the next meet & greet can include John. )

JOHN P. DONOGHUE
Democrat, District 2C, Washington County

House Office Building, Room 307
6 Bladen St., Annapolis, MD 21401-1991
(410) 841-3125, (301) 858-3125
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3125 (toll free)
e-mail: john.donoghue@house.state.md.us
fax: (410) 841-3414, (301) 858-3414

318 North Potomac St., Hagerstown, MD 21740
(301) 790-3780

This would be a good time for people to talk to Del. Donoghue. This is his his district and he's a Dem.

I agree that we should write to whoever need be. However, if all else fails maybe County could take the $1 million that they are thinking about spending on a temporary bridge in Funkstown because a few business owners (friends of Barr) are complaining of loss of money or instead of the $4.6 Million that they plan to spend on a few empty lots and buildings. Or better yet maybe the Wash. County Board of Education could take over that building. Because it seems as if any time they request money for fairytale ideas they are funded. We could have the first Business High School real close to the first Arts school.

Now here's a good idea. Thanks Hago. I'm writing my letter tonight and will mail it out tomorrow. But I'm liking your idea for having The First Business High School. Our kid's need to a more advanced teaching system in gerneral to keep up with the current times. Not meaning they don't but your suggestion would so much further our children for a better business future. Great Idea......

From what the article said, Tony seems to have hit the nail on the head when he said that 'it could be so much more than it is." The article implies that the other non-USM systems throughout the state have been shortchanged in terms of per-student funding compared to the USM systems. It seems like the House budget is aiming to spread the funding out more proportionally throughout all of these systems. The article says that:

"USM-Hagerstown and the system's other regional center, the Shady Grove center in Rockville, receive a total of $9 million from the state. The six regional centers outside of the university system share a fraction of that, yet serve many more students, Bohanan said. "

So between Shady Grove and Hagerstown, we get $9 million per year and the other six centers througout the state get far less. What is most interesting about this is that the other non-USM systems had to be creative and generate some of their own income so that they could survive. The article quotes one of the directors from another center:

"Questioning specific items in the Hagerstown center's budget, Bohanan said, "They need to go find out how these others do it much more efficiently."

Now this guy's center has the equivalent of 473 students and Hagerstown's appears to have less than half that (the number for this year wasn't published in the article). In spite of having more than twice as many students as Hagerstown, his center recieved much less money from the state. His question of efficiency appears to be valid. Without having the exact numbers, we can at least do a ballpark estimate of the state's per-student funding. Ballpark now (if anyone has the exact figures please provide), if the budget is $4 million per year and there are the equivalent of 200 students at the USM-Hagerstown, that means it is costing us $20,000 per student to run this college. That is in additon to the tuition and fees that the students themselves must pay. So it looks like it could cost between $25,000 and $30,000 to educate a student at the USM-Hagerstown. That doesn't include room & board, the use of athletic faclities, etc. that one would find at a larger college. So $25,000 to $30,000 per student for just basically classroom usage does appear to be quite high.

One of the answers is obviously to get more students there. This would justify more money from the state. Since this new facility was built, how has the population of students increased? Prior to constructing the new USM-Hagerstown facility, they had Frostburg and I believe some other schools operating in a building above the square. How many students attended then compared to now would be a good indication of the impact of this facility. If this hasn't at least tripled in that time with such a beautiful facility, then something is wrong. Perhaps it isn't marketed correctly or perhaps it's because people don't feel safe going downtown at night. Who knows, but a study on this needs to be done and quickly, and it shouldn't cost a cent either. Have one of the marketing/business classes at the school perform this study. Find out why people go elsewhere and what could be done to attract them to the USM-Hagerstown. Find out what it would take to interest people in attending who aren't going to college now. Be creative.

In addition to the study, the USM-Hagerstown could hook up with the job placement services that exist for people who get laid off. Have these services direct people to the school. They also need to establish solid contacts with the major employers in the area so that the employees are well aware of all that the system has to offer. Often times the large employers pay for the tuition, so there is nothing to lose for the employees wanting to give it a try.

More students will justify more funding from the state when the money is available, but times are getting tight. What the USM-Hagerstown also needs to do is become a revenue generating facility. They could easily provide classroom computer training for local industries. Put together package deals on courses with lunch at local restaurants.
The anount that is spent on this is incredible, and unless USM-Hagerstown is in on this, they are missing a great opportunity. Other computer training, such as for public employees (BOE, WC, Hagerstown) should be done at the USM-Hagerstown.

The bottom line is that the beautiful new facility is just underutilized. The challenge now is to utilize it better.

Thank Goodness the BOE is paying rent for the Arts High School to lease classroom space. The university is moving in the right direction. Generating that revenue. .........Kidding a little bit. But we knew Drevin would make a good point.

I read this earlier today. It is devastating news for the city and the community if the college loses so much funding that it can no longer exist. I considered doing classes there when I was living out there, but no programs relevant to my fields were available. In fact, it's part of the reason I moved east because there are better programs and definitely better jobs IMO.

I have friends in graduate classes at USM-H, so I hope for everyone's sake that all will at least have the opportunity to finish what they started. I'm rooting for you guys!

Correction to my ballpark estimate. I missed the part in the article where it said the budget for the USM-Hagerstown was $2.1 million. So with about the equivalent of 200 full time students, that would make the cost per student (to the state) to be around $10,500.

It would be interesting to hear more from people like Tony who have gone there and finished their degrees. Tony, what do you think could be done to make this situation better? Why don't you think more people attend the school? Do you think the money is being spent efficiently? Your insight on this would would give us a better feel for what is going on.

I guess my question would be does the $831,000 HCC is going to receive towards planning and design of a new Arts & Science complex come from the same part of the budget that funds USM Hagerstown? I know the cost of projects increase the longer it takes to complete them or even plan them - Edgewood Drive & Rt. 40 for example, with the project having a cost of $30 million now by the time it would get completed it will increase so getting a start as quickly as possible with the planning is important, and I do think HCC needs updated facilities but if those funds could have been applied to the university downtown to keep it going strong wouldn't that have been the better choice? I would want HCC and USM Hagerstown to get the funds they need, and in a perfect world they would but this isn't a perfect world.

http://www.herald-mail.com/?cmd=displaysto...amp;format=html

Having had kids at HCC, one is still there, I know there is an automatic referral to four year institutions to finish your degree. I.E..... Once you near graduation, there is an automatic referral at HCC or at least you receive general info to act upon a referral to a nearby university to finish your degree. My child is in the HCC honors program and that must link to other places. She has received two generous scholarship offers to finish her degree at Hood in Frederick or Carlow Univ in Pittsburgh. Both are members of the same honors society so maybe that was the link. But the packets came addressed to her, congratulating her on almost completing her final year at HCC and suggesting she continue with them. They then enclosed a list of scholarships to apply for. Hood actually promised her a great package up front.

I would think the downtown USM Hagerstown campus would be marketing closely with those graduating from an associates program at HCC. It would be a no brainer as obviously other colleges do it. They would have to tie in finanancial aid and scholarship counseling. We did not receive any information from USM Hagerstown. We did not think to ask. But other universities found us.

USM may have limited offerings but they do a good job for some. They could take it a step further and carve out a community niche for alternative education/certification programs. HCC and Kaplan are beating them in filling these voids. Both offer community and continuing education options. HCC does a great job offering courses for certification and licensing for trades and paraprofessionals. Check out their community education offerings in their respective catalogues. They have it posted online, and available at schools and the mall. Marketing ????????????? Maybe that is a area to rethink. Simple things like getting the information out to high schools, graduating HCC students, and people at the mall helps HCC and Kaplan.

From a parents perspective HCC has been great. USM can be good too. We should not pit them against each other, we need both. The transition to a quality four year program, that was affordable, materialized but not at USM-Hagerstown. My child had to work hard and do some research. It was a good match. USM-Hagerstown needs to partner with HCC and businesses.

First CH, the USMHC is in its infancy as compared to HCC and Kaplan.

As we all know, the investigative prowress of the HM never gets the right things right.

As of Spring 08 the total student count at USMHC is 380.

Having said that, Del. Bohanan is only redirecting the funds from the budget for USMHC, not for the other State System Universities. The catch phrase here is the State System Universities.

The Southern Maryland Higher Education Centers offer programs from private universities such as Johns Hopkins, Catholic University of America, Capitol College, George Washington and others. Their campus is located on a 24 Acre site and is comprised of two buildings, constructed in 1994 and 2003 with 59,000 square feet of space, including a 430 seat conference hall. These facilities are rented to area businesses and are even used for weddings, which generates money for their operating budget. USMHC does not have the facilities to rent and funds cannot be generated in this manner. Also, as stated above, our College is in it's infancy and this facitility has had 11 years to grow. The Southern Maryland Higher Education Center is like comparing apples to oranges - different schools, different funding sources, different locations.

And for further info, USMHC does monitor and work closely with HCC and Kaplan.

The fiasco in all of this is, that no matter what happens, if in committee it takes the 2 million and redirects it, the Governor cannot un-redirect it. It will stay in limbo, or in the general fund. This helps no one.

Excellent insight CH. Thanks for sharing that with us. I think what you said shows a real void in the marketing efforts of USM-H. If they aren't getting to the kids at HCC in an attempt to help them continue their education, then they are really missing the point of their existence. The insight on continuing ed courses and the like appears to be right on too.

I think what CH related shows what the other director in the article was referring to. If USM-H got a lot of money from the state, they didn't have to work very hard to make the system function. The other eduction centers in the state didn't get much state funding and thus they had to be creative and work harder to survive. Without the state funding and without the incentive to make it work any better, the funding deficit will be pushed upon Washington County taxpayers. So it looks like we might have to cover the $1.4 million for next year unless something happens quickly. This school is not going to be closing its doors, so someone will have to pay to keep them open.

Mayor, regarding the student count, there is a difference between the number of students attending and what is referred to as a 'full-time equivalent'. I'm not sure exactly what the definition is on this, but it is probably the total number of credit hours taken at the school divided by 15 (the number of credits that a full-time student would take). This calculation is needed so that apples-to-apples comparisons can be done. You obviously can't say that someone taking 18 credits a semester should be counted the same as someone who is only taking three credits a semester. The facility needs for the two are considerably different. So to compare USM-H to the other faclilties of its kind in the state, do you know how many FTE students are at USM-H?

That is the number for Spring 08. 380 The enrollment figures are slightly down so far for 09 expectations, 253.
But, it's early.

Oh my, what will this do for Demacore's Artsy Fartsy district.

Again, I post a broad yet positive take and I get sited for not being positive about the downtown facility. I was the one that said we should email someone. We may need to explainin we have smaller resources and unique needs to a rural county. I agree we need to plead our case for more funding. We need to define, & illustrate our situation. And also look at what we can do as a community to maximize resources. Our demographics are vastly different from the USM campus at Shady Grove, it backs up to Rockville & Potomac MD. It is a comfortable area in the nicer part of Mont Co MD.

Drevin and many others make some reasonable points. I see solutions close at hand. We could use this as a gentle wake up call. We are being told, ground has been lost so lets get together and change it up. We have a great resource sitting there, lets share it with more students. I know USM is on a learning curve and younger than nearby institutions. But it is the funding for USM that is at risk. Kaplan and HCC were not on the chopping block. That is why I addressed USM, it is the topic of the thread.

I am an advocate of education, downtown redevelopment and the arts. I also speak as a working stiff with a kid. I am also practical and budget minded. I know what came in the mail and simply suggested a cheap way for the university to catch up would be to copy what is being done by other institutions. I was making a positive suggestion. An inexpensive one, requiring no consulting company coming in and doing a survey. Diversify target groups/curriculum & then get the word out. Maybe a billboard, something.....................
I love downtown and USM-Hagerstown. I love Western Maryland.

Mr. Mayor, something doesn't seem right with those numbers (380 current FTE students and 253 FTE projected for next year). Why such a difference? Is teh 380 really FTE? Also, where can somebody find this information? I couldn't find anything related to student population on their website. Thanks.

Those are the numbers I have received, can't explain away the difference. Sorry.

Actually the mayor stole some thunder in reporting the differences in the school that Del. Bohanan is lobbying for, namely the Higher Education Center located in his district, which is no part of the University System, and does operate differently. I agree with others here that there is an attempt in this effort to only affect the University in Hagerstown, while similar facilities in the more urban and politically powerful counties to the east are sheltered, possibly from Del. Bohanan avoiding having to confront those legislators funding streams knowing that such an effort would be DOA.

Some of the mayor's info came from a request I made since hearing about this issue, to have the folks as USMH work up some quick comparable facts that they could easily wrap their minds around as the issue was quickly making its way through the legislative process. The figure is 380+ total students or 253 FTE, but the obvious affect will be to 380+ students receiving the higher education opportunity regardless of whether they can only manage for whatever reason to do it 3 credits at a time or as a full time student. if you want a true picture of the disparity that exists between the educational attainament of a population simply look at demographic differences between this county and other comparable counties.

I agree this info should be at hand and we should use it to lobby for the protection of these funds that benefit citizens in this county which are an equal integral part of the success of the overall State, and in that vein submitted the following letter via email last night to give our legislators some of my own thoughts on this matter, if nothing else than to open at minimum a discussion to look at easing this loss of funding over time rather than simply stripping it from under one of its own institutions only to fund the narrowly defined interests of another.



Dear Honorable Delegates Busch and Conway,

While most residents within my community are now asleep in preparation for their labors tomorrow, I find it odd to be inspired at this moment, and in this late hour of the evening to impress upon you the importance and affect that such basic public provisions have upon the success of this community. I should not however, and was not on Tuesday, overly surprised to learn that critical funding for our University System of Maryland, Hagerstown Campus was being offered as yet nother sacrificial lamb from a seemingly endless sea of state officials all too ready to place upon the chopping block one more of the limited funds we have strived to protect and maintain to better the lives of our citizenry.

From my view, which I am not naive enough to believe is wholly unbiased, this community has been assured only one continual protected funding stream that has grown over time within the State budget, and at times touted in our own local media as a measurable success in the return of a fair share of our citizens funds to the local economy. I refer quite candidly to the level of investment that continues to be made by the State in this County to house much of the State's ever-growing youth and adult criminal population, from which our community absorbs the indirect impacts of each year.

I do not fault such efforts to bring balance to the necessity that exists within either our educational or corrections facilities to serve the greater good of this State. However, after reading the apparent callousness within Delegate Bohanan's remarks on abruptly crippling the funding opportunities for higher education in this community, it is clear that he has failed to grasp the "One Maryland" our Governor so passionately spoke of just recently in this very community. Otherwise, this delegate would exercise greater consideration before attempting to press a committee to cannibalize the necessary funding resources that this university and so many of its students heavily depend upon.

By no means do I believe these words shall sway the court of legislative opinion, but I would feel that I have not served my citizens the service they entrust upon me to deliver if I did not make these feelings known.

Sincerely,

Mr. Kristin B. Aleshire (D)
Washington County Commissioner

Excellent letter Kid. Hopefully the (D) next to your name will help draw some attention to this. Thanks for the effort to save the USM-H's funding. In the mean time, this should be a wakeup call - let's find some ways to get more students to utilize that facility or else we could remain on the chopping block in the future.

Ok Guys I am half sick today and my head is spinning so I can't put the effort into each posters responses as I would like. But I will try and generalize some of what I remember and if you still have specific questions let me know.

On the subject of HCC. I can answer something others since I am employee will not be answered and I think you can figure out why. HCC does an excellent job with students and helping students find other schools. Information is posted and college fairs are held. They even post and give information about scholarships at 4 year schools. If a student graduates HCC and says that no one tried to help them go on they are plain full of it.

As for cutting the budget at HCC for redoing the buildings. Sorry but i tend to disagree. My office was in the building that is being remodeled now the career programs building. I spent 8 months last year with plastic over my desk because I could look through the ceiling and see daylight. Lucky for me we had a drought and not a rainy year. The bathrooms in some buildings are a joke. In one building the handicap bathroom is a toilet behind a shower curtain in the men’s room.

Are there building expenses that could be cut there always is in any project. I am sure if you look around in what is proposed you will see some things that could wait or are wants. However the plain and simple truth is the buildings need replaced. Sometimes 20 or more students are crammed into a room that should maybe have 15 at the most.


Now as for USM-H first as the Mayor said they are a State System Campus. They should be getting the public funding compared to the private colleges. Private colleges have less restriction in raising money than a government school does. As for population of students they went from 78 in 2005 to what 380 now? They are doubling that original total each year. Also if you look some of the school didn't even sign on till last year or bring certain programs here. When I started my school offered I believe four classes here and now they are over 30 last time I looked.(Not sure of this year).

As for help I received a half off tuition scholarship because I had a GPA of 3.5 and graduated from a Community College. That scholarship was open to everyone. I know many students who got it

Now as for suggestion at improving it and making it more viable. I have a few:

1. quit limiting the campus by perception. They should start offering some day classes and nurture them along till they take off. We are in an area that is comprised of businesses that work shifts. We automatically are losing people by only offering classes at night.

2. I would like to see a student be able to complete more courses here. Get the school to work together on the general courses then if a student at UMUC needs a gened course that Frostburg has let them take it and so on. We should have the full spectrum in place. That way students don't have to travel or take online courses which is what I did and am doing now for my Master's if the particular course they isn't offered by their school.

3. Start reaching out to traditional college students who go away to college. We are getting a nice arts district how about getting some student housing in the downtown. It would bring money into downtown and bring more students. This school wasn't started to be a campus where students "go away" to but why should we limit it? I know many students who would like to live away from home but can't afford College Park or they are nervous about living there and some who just can't handle the pressure of classroom of 300 students. Those types of people might want to live in a small town like Hagerstown, walk to school, shop and be entertained in the downtown. As downtown improves this would be more of an option.

4. This one has nothing to do with the school. Maybe we (Western Maryland) should leave the State of Maryland and form our own state or join another. Then we wouldn't be the red headed stepchildren that the big counties treat us like.

Tony

"HCC does an excellent job with students and helping students find other schools. Information is posted and college fairs are held. They even post and give information about scholarships at 4 year schools. If a student graduates HCC and says that no one tried to help them go on they are plain full of it."...Tony

"As for help I received a half off tuition scholarship because I had a GPA of 3.5 and graduated from a Community College. That scholarship was open to everyone. I know many students who got it."...Tony
.....................................................
AGREE, that was the point I tried to make, my kids got all that. They got offers for transfer scholarships and an honors scholarship to many universities. They opted to go to other schools over USM-Hagerstown. That was my point. The information and marketing was a lot heavier from those schools. Several institutions called and sent enticing proposals. Eventually, when the menu of academic majors is broadened that will also help entice students. I know it will take time. It is a work in progress.

HCC is wonderful, and should not be pitted against USM-Hagerstown. Building a bigger partnership that is clearer to younger students may help tap into those choosing Hood and Towson. My issue was lets help improve the information flow between the two institutions. Obviously, we need more people in the desks at USM-Hagerstown, so something has to improve or be tweaked. HCC is one feeder. Also agree, more students might take a second look if scheduling and course offerings were altered to include a daytime option. Even kids at the arts school could do a modified Essence program, getting early credit while in high school. They would also get a sample of the college, and feel "Hey I want to stay here when I graduate high school." This might make USM-Hagerstown move up in preference. Right now it may be a savior for older students and people in the graduate programs but there are other groups to market too. Along with course/class scheduling offerings, other universities are getting the word out as evidenced by kids choosing other schools.

Granted, we need to develop alternative funding partnerships we are a unique campus. USM-Hagerstown has different demographics and is in a rural community compared to USM-Shady Grove. Annapolis needs to factor this into our need for funding.

I checked out the USM-H website, amd it appears that thy only offer classes at the junior level and above there (including Masters courses). Isn't it in their charter to offer freshman and sophmore college level courses? If not, CommunityHagerstown is correct. They are missing a good opportunity at targeting first and second year students who may want to take something not offered at HCC. That forces the kids out of the community into other colleges. Is it not possible for USM-H to offer full four-year college courses?

They should also examine situations such as what CH's kids just went through. If the marketing was better for HCC graduates for other four-year schools farther away than it was for USM-H, there sounds like there is a good opportunity to keep more students here with a little more effort. They could learn a lot by talking to some people like CH to get their take on what her family just went through. It wouldn't hurt to ask some recent graduates of HCC who went on elsewhere why they didn't choose the USM-H.

Well looking at todays paper it looks like it stood. Now it is up to our elected officials and I have an idea for them although it might be a little off the wall.

Mr. mayor and Kid how about the city and county approaching the ACLU to sue and get an injunction stopping the state from doing this. The reason: Catholic University is one of the schools there and this violates the separation of church and state. The government is shifting public funds from a public school to a private religous entity.

As much as I dislike the arguement it makes sense to try it. you can't wait until it is all the way through. Maybe the state will back down if they see the possibility for losing in court at this early stage.

Tony

The idea was that the community college would feed the school. They didn't want to bring in classes like English 101 that would draw away from those schools. What they should do is start offering HCC gened classes downtown for those Universities. It relieve some overcrowding here and get more people in there. Basic fact is the schools there and HCC need to coordinate their efforts and make it easier to jump school lines. Take a class at this school or that school if your doesn't offer it here.

Oh Tony what absolute garbage! I agree them screwing over the UM-H campus is a serious matter, but to suggest that our elected officials should engage in anti-religious, anti-Catholic activism using a group as filthy and despicable at the ACLU is just plain insane!

Instead of attacking what we all know is essentially a secular institiution just because of their religious affiliation and name, let's stick to the positive - UM Hagerstown needs to be saved because of the good it does, not because we hate Catholics and think that a Catholic University should be cut off simply for being Catholic!

Shame on you for even suggesting the thing, no matter how much you claim to hate to suggest it. Thank goodness those who succeed in local politics know that the right approach is to promote the good/positive things in our community and not simply use dirty tactics to attack all things religious.

P.S. - Please provide a reference to the section of the U.S. or Maryland Constitution that includes the words "separation of church and state". You cannot, because there isn't one. You are misinterpreting the establishment clause of the First Amendment, which does not in fact demand that the state discriminate against religious intitutions. It requires neutral - equal treatment, and Thomas Jefferson's oft-misused mention of a "separation" (which is in fact not codified into law) was in the context of an issue where the state was attempting to discriminate against a religion.

Your suggestion that the law could be used to demand the exclusion of an institution on the basis of its religious affiliation is therefore doomed to failure becuse the law in the United States does not support such discrimination. The public-private distinction, however, may have some merit. Stick to it - it's your only valid argument.

"they will just continue to do the best that they can"

BMIC you may not like it I don't like either. However, how many times have you seen the courts stop public funds from going to a religious entity. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking Catholics. If it was a Methodist School I would do the same thing. The argument I am proposing is one that is used all of the time for school voucher programs. This is pretty much the same issue.

As for sticking to the high roads of good intentions, good intentions never got sh#t. I could care less about your moral high ground or any good fight scenario. We need to win this and anyone who says we shouldn't use every method at our disposal is an idiot (sorry idiot no disrespect).

We are talking about not only the future of our area but the individual futures of a lot of people. You can't hold back because of some perceived moral high ground garbage. There is a winner and a loser in this and I want the winner to be the USMH campus and the people of Washington County.

We in Western Maryland have continually been stomped on by the big counties of Maryland. Our delegation is powerless you know and I know it. They are outnumbered and don't even have the fallback position of relying on a Governor. If every means at our disposal is not used now, it will come back to haunt us all. There isn't a tomorrow or next year. If that funding cut goes through, USMH will be harmed to the point that it will not recover.

We need to stand up and show those big counties we will fight for what is right and if we can't stop you from screwing us over in the legislature we will stop you in court.

Think what you want BMIC but keeping to the high ground means you are fighting with one hand behind your back and living in fantasyland. If the big counties know they will have an all out fight including courts you will see how fast a compromise gets reached. I am not against funding those schools I am against funding them at the expense of the state schools.

So you would toss your morality and sense of decency out the window simply because others do so too?

Sorry, and maybe you'd like to think of my kind as hopelessly naive, but I knowingly CHOOSE to take the moral high ground and set the example. Sure, such an approach sometimes fails because there are indeed people who play dirty pool, but I will not be one of them and I am heartened to see that in spite of what you think, it is true what they say that "what goes around comes around". In my experience, living by the Golden Rule and choosing to behave ethically in spite of the unethical people all around actually DOES pay off in the end.

You might call me naive or at least ineffectual. I wholeheartedly disagree. I believe that if you sell your soul to the Devil, it doesn't matter what you accomplish: you have lost.

While the courts do sometimes find in favor of anti-religious zealots, and even the Supreme Court screws up sometimes, I believe in the rule of law and the United States Constitution. I don't agree with the idea of using unethical means to get my way. The end does not justify the means, as they say.

Sorry to be such a paragon of integrity and decency. I know it makes compromisers look bad. But I refuse to give in just because those who play dirty sometimes win.

Ok here if you all want to get some facts about what you are supporting should this measure pass:

http://www.smhec.org/Pages/Default.aspx

You have 3 out of state schools- Old Dominion, George Washington and Catholic

An independent school in Capitol College (not too independent if they need the state to fund them surprising since they charge 9k a semester)

Two Catholic Schools Norte Dame of Maryland and Catholic University (oh and BMIC your claim about Catholic not being religious check out their home page and the first thing you see is about the Pope coming and they are inviting you to come see him)

One school that doesn't talk about if it is private or public or where the money goes Gratz

Three schools that are part of the state system - UMD, UMUC and Towson

Finally, you have Hopkins and Coppin


Why aren't we asking DC and Virginia to contribute more if this campus is in such bad shape? Why are my tax dollars being used to support schools that are outside of Maryland?

Do you have any stake in USMH? Are you taking classes there or have any one close to you who is? Have that Campus changed your life and your perception? Maybe I am all for saving that Campus by whatever means simply because my life was transformed by being able to get a good education in Hagerstown at HCC and UMUC who happens to be one of the schools downtown.

What is more ethical using the law and turning it to our favor this time or letting people lose their hope and dreams of higher education. That is what is at stake because some people would not get that educational opportunity if not for the USMH campus. Protecting people is always more ethical in my mind than some perceived moral high ground on paper.

But don't worry our local politicians don't have the b@lls to fight it out with the big counties. They will write letters and lobby and then after it is lost they will come back and tell you how they did their best and tried. Then you and they can be happy with your morals while someone lost a chance at a dream.

[quote]"The idea was that the community college would feed the school. They didn't want to bring in classes like English 101 that would draw away from those schools. What they should do is start offering HCC gened classes downtown for those Universities. It relieve some overcrowding here and get more people in there. Basic fact is the schools there and HCC need to coordinate their efforts and make it easier to jump school lines. Take a class at this school or that school if your doesn't offer it here." Tony
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Excellent points Tony, I need to clarify that my family was well aware that you do the first two years at HCC and then transfer to the downtown campus. That makes sense.

After reading of USM's troubles, I pondered if the new goal will need to market to a wider group, more age ranges and types of students. (???) Basically, trying to hook more into thinking about USM, either thru traditional programs or maybe special certification or continuing education options.

We had our kids work full-time in Hagerstown while taking classes at HCC. The saved money and also stayed on a good path. The younger students ( ages 22-24) are a hard target group to feed directly into just one program. They all have ideas and some take longer to formulate a plan. It seems those who have a specific plan at HS graduation do better. I see the model at USM attracting the older working student. Does that need to change?, I do not know.

HCC continues to serve some Highshoolers quite well right off the bat. They prepare for a paraprofessional career in healthcare, IT, trucking, or another certificate program. Others do two years and save up for the transfer process. The two years may take longer if it takes awhile to get through the mandatory core requirements. For us it was MATH. Everyone has their hurtle. Made sense to grunt it out at HCC, live at home and work.

The University of Pa system and Sheperd markets really well. In some situations, they make it possible to find a college in PA or WVa that equals the cost of Frostburg if they were living at Frostburg's home campus (Room & Board). Then you have some Baltimore colleges and Hood that market to HCC graduates. Some of these younger students are still considering going away to college. You may never get them. the question, how do we get the kid who has never considered college to give it a try? If not at 19 maybe 25 or 35. USM might be a good fit.

What works for some is proposing various financial aide and honors scholarship packages. Hood has a great transfer and Honors scholarship offered to HCC students nearing graduation. My kids sought out of state schools as that was where their major was. Currently the downtown campus has some great offerings just not specific to what my child wants to study. That is not a bad reflection on USM. Just life with a teen.

The real woe that USMH suffers is that Bohanan only wants to redirect those funds intended for the Hagerstown site.
If you notice, he doesn't mention routing money from the Shady Grove campus.

Of course I am sure that this all falls under retaliation for our Delegation voting against and filing a law suit for the special session. It only makes sense, make the guy mad who has the basketball and when he leaves the game is over.

I truly hope that Donoghue can make a difference with the Speaker and leverage a win for Hagerstown. Munson is working hard on the problem, and although he didn't get into the fray over the special session, he falls prey to the same retaliation, guilty by association.

It truly is sad that we have such poor relations with our sitting Governor.

Del. Myers introduced a motion to get the 125K put back in for Alleghany County, but made not mention of the USMH.

I know he never believed that the college should go downtown, but once there, everyone needs to be singing off the same sheet of music.

I can only hope that the reasons stated above are not the reasons behind Bohanan doing what he did.

Mayor Bob
As you know my wife is in college and no not with the USM but I feel a deep compassion with ongoing education What, Besides writing to our governor which I've done so already can we do to support this effort. Our future student's need this and we all need to stand behind it. Please inform me on what further effort's we can do.
Kid please let us know what we can do in your effort's to assist in keeping our campus here? I'll put my personal issues aside for now to keep this campus here.

Actually BMIC you brought up something that is another arguement that could be used. As you say "equal treatment" when it comes to religon. I wonder how many other religous colleges are getting funded by the state of Maryland? They are funding Catholic Universities are they funding any other religons university's. If they aren't fiunding other religous school then it would appear that the state is endorsing the catholic religon over others.

Nothing should be off the table in fighting. Writing letter might be nice and the politically cvoorect thing to do. In all honesty though do you think O'Malley or any politician outside of Washington County really cares what the people of Washington County want? Thye have proved that over and over again. We are an afterthought at most to what the big counties and the Democratic party want.

Another arguement should be that the population within Hagerstown (where the college is located) only 9-11% have a 4 year degree or higher. Only 4-7% have a Masters or higher.

Another arguement there are no other 4 + year colleges to attend within a 30 mile radius within the state. I am talkin within the state because surely the politicians would want us to support collleges within this state.

Due to these points alone should sell the idea that Hagerstown needs this more than any other area with maybe the exception of colleges on the other side of the Bay Bridge.

Don't be so sure 3 of the schools at Southern are not even schools headquartered in the State of Maryland. Evidently our politicians think it better to supports schools in Virginia and DC than Maryland.

Catholic or not doesn't matter, for the reasons already stated. Out of state. Private. Self-proclaimed "independent" all most deinitely DO matter.

State funds need to go to schools that are in the State system first and foremost. If anyone is to get short-changed, it should be everyone else who gets cut off before any part of the state system. That's the argument that holds the most sway and doesn't leave one sounding bigoted against people of faith.

This will be a tough point to argue. Would it be worth it to keep the "graduate" program or should they focus solely on undergrad? To me, it seemed like USM-H had an identity crisis when I was looking at their course offerings a couple years ago. When I was looking, the (graduate) classes were pretty limited in scope of subjects, but also vague enough not to focus on a specific issue/sub-major. In all honesty, when I was looking, USM-H seemed like one of the online universities (like Strayer, Phoenix, etc.) where the building was just a place to go once a week to take your exam and the majors were more of a catch-all. I also could not figure out which college would be written on the degree/diploma if I were to ever finish a program there (Frostburg/UMUC/USM-H)? I know a friend of mine didn't even have to take the GRE/GMAT in order to get into the graduate program at USM-H. I think this is the best way for the college to be marketed, as a Strayer/Phoenix type facility.

As a young, former resident of Wash.Co., I still would love for USM-H to do something to draw more students/programs, but I realize the building is only so big and is there legitimate interest for these classes/programs with the numbers provided above? I still haven't started any graduate program yet, but when I do, I have my choice of 5+ great schools with many different specific programs in the Baltimore area. I also have to keep studying for the GMAT/GRE

One last thing on the numbers provided on enrollment, is that the numbers of Maryland residents of Washington County attending courses at USM-H or is that a total number of students enrolled including those from outlying counties and states?

Welcome back BMIC!

Like I said when I started my school only offered 4 or 5 classes. Now the last I counted they are growing and adding classes I believe it is over 30 when I counted last. You can't judge the school by what was a couple of years ago. No one expected them to open up with hundreds of classes. That wouldn't have made since. Each year they grow though and that is what they should do.

That's great they're adding more and more classes. As I said before, one of my buddies is taking graduate classes there and it seems to fit for him. I've moved east and their classes definitely won't work for me, but I'm glad they're adding classes to keep the university going forward.

The part I bolded is actually a really important thing for ME. I do actually judge schools for their past/prestige/etc. I know UMUC offers probably the best evening/online MBA program in the country and I'm glad they have courses at USM-H. I'm just never too sure how serious my (and similar) employer(s) take the online degree programs. My biggest issue now is picking my degree program and getting into one of the very few programs I like offered at graduate schools in the area. I'm in no rush because I enjoy working and making money right now without worrying about schoolwork.

Do they offer any teleconferencing courses (ie, take a course via teleconference that is actually being taught at College Park, UB, UMBC, Loyola, JHU, etc.)? I think that would be intriguing/profitable for all.

I was just on the website for UM at H-town & was amazed that most of the Masters programs still had Frostburg as the location of the courses...so what exactly does the Hagerstown campus offer?

And if someone at 35 wants to try out college, they can go to HCC-they take anyone...

and graduate degrees--whopee! My hubby has one--I don't. I refuse to return to college. I hated it. Maybe on line. But let me tell you, I have not met a person yet with a Masters degree where I thought it made them a. better at their job; b. more educated..and I know quite a few.

Not sure where you were looking but here is the link to all of the Master's programs they offer at Hagerstown

http://www.hagerstown.usmd.edu/programs.as...uate%20Programs

Here is the link of the undergrad programs:

http://www.hagerstown.usmd.edu/programs.as...uate%20Programs

The listing beside of them is the school that offers them in Hagerstown.

Thanks Tony--to me it looked like you had to go to the other campuses to get the classes..but you saying they offer the courses from the other campuses at our locale. Okay I guess. So, basically we have no program of our own--we borrow other programs & just offer them at our campus like long-distance learning?

I went to UTSA & you could not take the classes at UTAustin from UTSA's campus...so it was confusing to me..

No these programs listed are the ones brought in by each of the schools. What they agreed to is that they would have the classes needed to complete that degree here in Hagerstown. You can still take classes at their other campuses or online if choose to do that. I took classes online and downtown. Right now my MS is online only since they don't offer it in Hagerstown.

Still there is a lot at Hagerstown.

Yeah, that's why son is going to have to leave.sure.

I know my buddy's classes in Hagerstown are through Frostburg... I *think* he's doing the MBA, but I wasn't listening well last time we talked because we were watching football. The graduate programs look to give a decent variety now, but still nothing that could work for me.

Tony, do they use teleconferencing or do the professors/instructors come from those colleges to downtown to teach the courses?