I was wondering what everyone thinks about middle school students taking high school mathematics classes like geometry and algebra.

Let me give some background on myself first. I am a college student doing my final internship to become a high school mathematics teacher. In high school I took Geometry, Algebra II, Trig/PreCalc, AP Calc 1 and 2.

Now, middle school students are taking Geometry in the 8th grade, Algebra I in the 7th. In college most students are required to complete a statistics course or a college algebra course. Any sort of calculus in high school is not needed in my opinion. The ONLY people that are required to take calculus in college are engineers and mathematics majors (possibly some science, so don't quote me on that). You have to score a 5 on the AP calculus test to get out of taking calculus in college (5 is the absolute highest score you can get on the AP tests). That makes taking calculus in high school completely pointless in my opinion. High school students in Washington County now have to take four credits of mathematics in high school. If students start in Algebra II in 9th grade that forces them to be in a calculus class at some point. Also, I don't think middle school students are developmentally ready to handle algebra earlier and earlier, and geometry is a difficult subject. High school geometry isn't just find the area, perimeter, and volume. It's also not fill in the missing angles. It involves proofs and logical thinking skills that aren't easy to grasp at any age.

I want to know what the point is of making students take high level mathematics classes earlier and earlier. I understand that the students are high level, but what is the point of taking calculus if you don't need it in college? Some people will argue that students don't need Chemistry, or high level English classes, but you need to take science classes in college, and you need to take English classes. I'm only taking about college students, I don't want to get into the discussion of where you use math in every day life. I'll just say this. No, you don't use the formulas from algebra in every job you have, it's the ability to learn and apply information and the logical reasoning ability you use.

I'm getting off track. I was just wondering what everyone thinks about requiring students to have four math classes in high school and having middle school students take geometry.

Waaaaay back when I was an 8th grader at BMS I took high-school algebra, got high school credit for it. It kept me challenged. There was a full class of kids. I think it was and is a good idea if enough students are there to take the class. Maybe things were different then, as I did not have to take calculus in HS. Thank goodness, cuz in college that stuff drove me to drink, and that’s the only good thing I can say about it. I could not test out of basic calc today if my life depended on it. In roughly 20 years of mfg/engineering related work I never missed being a calc wiz and can count on 1 hand the number of times I had to ask someone smarter than me a clac-related questions. But that’s just a sample of 1…

Geometry in high school was when I started getting an idea I might not be as smart as I thought I was. Alg. II/Trig went OK, but by pre-cal, I realized I wasn't.

Higher math, more than any other HS subject (IMO), is one of those things that can really get a student who just doesn't "get" math in academic trouble.

I agree Sman, I think that the problem is that normal to low level students are being forced to take four math classes, and some of those higher level math classes are difficult. Even as a math major I had trouble understanding some of the things in algebra II and geometry, and I got a one on the calc test the first time I took it.

I have a child in middle school who is seriously struggling in math. Currently she is studying Algebraic concepts and she is having alot of difficulty. I think she is far too young to grasp the general concept of the material.

There are problems like 2x = y : what is the value of y if x is 5

She cannot conceptualize the idea of substituting a number in for a variable. Letters representing numbers is completely over her head. I think in a few years she will understand this concept but right now she cannot logically grasp the idea. We have talked to her teachers and she gets tutored every week, but this is still a hard subject for her.

There are students her age who understand the material. We would like for our child to be in a math class that is adapted to her needs. A class that teaches the material at a slower pace where the material is explained more thoroughly would be better for her. Unfortunately, according to her teachers this is not an option for her at this time. She is passing, but barely and my fear is that next year they will continue to expand on these concepts and she will fall even further behind.

Quality teachers can make all the difference. Back in the 1970's I took Algebra in 8th grade with a darned good teacher and did great. Went to a magnet school for High School where the teachers were in competition for the chance to teach the brightest kids in the County and I did great with most of them.

As a Chemistry major in college I was required to take several semesters of calculus, statistics and one semester of differential equations or whatever it was (super advanced Calculus). I hated math - got B's in the darned math classes (straight A's in Chemistry - I was at the top of my class).

For any kids planning to continue their education beyond High School I think they should have Algebra 2, Trigonometry, and some kind of light intro to Calculus if not a full-fledged Calculus course.

Those definitely NOT in a college prep curriculum should have lesser options available - I wholeheartedly agree. But the problem is they only have so many teachers and WCPS just isn't big on providing lots of alternatives.

At the very least I wish they would offer tutoring or provide referrals for tutoring for kids who are struggling. My kid's now finished with all of that, but I asked multiple times and never could get help from any of her school's teachers, nor even a referral to a paid outside tutor for her when she was failing Geometry. But that was only the beinning of my problems with WCPS.

Sunshine, I have a daughter in FIFTH grade who had to learn to do problems just like what you cited above. It really does not seem as if it should be a problem for anyone to learn to solve equations with letters representing numbers, but I have to keep reminding her teacher that she has not had a whole lot of experience working with numbers at all!

wow!! fifth grade is seems to early for this stuff--

whats next algebra in kindergarten??

my stepson was in 5th grade last year, and he struggles with algebraic problems for the latter portion of the school year.... when 6th grade began, they kicked of the math year with a cumulative review of fifth grade, and he did much better the second time around, and has progressed nicely thus far. He is not a child who is historically "good at math", and when we asked him why he was doing so much better this year ( they have moved forward to a curriculum that looks like pre-algebra with geometry, which i recall doing in 7th grade... ) he said "my teacher explained it better". being 11, he didn't really belabor the point, but all i know is he has made honor roll all year so far... makes me nervous though... if this is the 6th grade math... i shudder to ponder the 11th grade math. >.<

Okay, I'm going to jump into the fray here on this one. I just had 2 children go thru this and both are now in High School.

Washington County does not force any of the middle school students to take Algebra and Geometry. My son took Algebra in 8th grade 3 years ago--they were just starting the idea then & he got HS Credit for it. My daughter took both Algebra and Geometry and did fine and is now in Algebra II as a Freshman. She got 2 HS credits before she walked in the door.

The kids that are ready for the challenge it is pushed upon, and probably rightly so. Both of them could do 2x = y; let 5 = y in 4th & 5th grade...and that is when 'x' is usually introduced as the 'unknown value'. They were both bored with middle school math by 6th grade. I took Algebra as a freshman in HS but my sister was able to take it in 8th grade--she was better at math than I was. She went on to be an engineer.

That being said, my neighbor's kid is still in 9th grade taking pre-Algebra. The HS requires 4 math credits, but it does not insist that all the students take Algebra I, Geo, Alg II, Pre-Cal for the 4 credits. I think they have to get through Algebra I & Geometry, but I am not sure.

Math is not harmful, although I hated, hated, hated, Calculus & yes, I took it in college, and no, I am not a math or science major. But it was helpful to understand economics and statistics.

I cannot help but wonder why it is such an issue--most people need to be able to understand some mathematical concepts, so they should be able to master Algebra I & Geometry at least..then maybe the next generation will not be whining about the adjustable rate mortgages they signed off on...

Just my 2 cents on the subject...

Your story sounds alot like mine, Ex tx. I am surrounded by family members who are extra ordinary in the math department. Two nephews, brothers and a sister. I did not get those genes. Neither did my kids. But, I have watched my nephews excel at math and given alot of advanced classes to keep them challenged. They are both 12ish. My sister just loves math She thinks numbers are so exciting. To me, they are stick figures without any real depth. Numbers are no comparison to words, for my brain! I still use my fingers to add and subtract at times.


I think the advanced classed should be offered and not forced. Math can be a struggle for students who are gifted in other ways. I don't remember having to deal with advanced math until high school. Algebra was always easy for me because there were steps (rules) to memorize and you could follow the rules to calculate. When I took geometry, it was like a foreign language that I could never grasp. Nothing made any sense to me and it all seemed so abstract. I loved Chemistry, but thought of that as more of a science than math.

But, it's usually easy to tell which students can be encouraged to take the advanced courses. Basic math is so important for everyday living. I'd want to make sure kids are getting the basics down. If they're struggling through basic math, I don't see taking advanced courses as needed. Good self esteem is a forgotten tool in education. I believe when kids are excited about what they are learning, that it can come naturally. Some may enjoy algebra or geometry in high school when they've had more time to mature and the pressure is off. Reading, writing and math...... make sure they can excel in the basics before pushing them into advanced classed. If they're ready, go for it. Just my two cents.

[quote name='txexpatriot' date='Mar 19 2008, 08:08 AM' post='102764']
Okay, I'm going to jump into the fray here on this one. I just had 2 children go thru this and both are now in High School.

Washington County does not force any of the middle school students to take Algebra and Geometry. My son took Algebra in 8th grade 3 years ago--they were just starting the idea then & he got HS Credit for it. My daughter took both Algebra and Geometry and did fine and is now in Algebra II as a Freshman. She got 2 HS credits before she walked in the door.

...........................

Agree with Txexpatriot & Checks:
My kids had the same options. Some kids are ready in Middle School and will excel. Others are not and need that learning window between 8th and 9th grade. Then there is math and a half. Algebra is taught, along with a class to follow up on bench mark needs that need extra focus. It is like a 30 minute exstention of the math class to ensure the students get the daily lesson and can actually master the concepts in the homework assignments. On their schedule it equals a course credit and a half. It is not a deficit but where your child is at regarding learning. All can achieve the basic credits for regular Algebra/Geometry. There are just different ways to teach the same subject.

In Montgomery County we had the fast track math or the 7t/8th grade Algebra option. Then there was regular (Like You and I probably took.), and more supportive classes, like Math and a half. All these formats prepared kids to pass the same Exam and bench marks, resulting in the standard required math credits for graduation. Those more math oriented took additional classes, calculus or whatever. Those struggling had a workable model to endure mastery.

I found the key to Math was hooking the child up to the correct way of teaching it, each child is different. I have had a child in each track. All are now successful in their daily life. I have no problem saying it took one a lot longer to get from A to B but heck she got there.................I always loved the sniping at Elem PTAs re: Math. OK, maybe none of you encountered this in Maryland, it is gentler here. And I am a transplant.
You would hear understated whispers or murmurers that so and so was gifted. She would need Algebra by grad 6 or 7. In the end with good teaching and parenting, many kids can bypass their original labels or anxiety about math. Some may take all the classes and pass, then need remedial math in college. There is life after math. It may take longer for some.

I have one child who loves math and one who hates it and struggles. We are all different. Pat yourself on the back if you and your kids whipped thru without a worry. I had one of those and one of the other. Both good kids. Some face a huge hurtle. Our brains are wired differently. Thankfully there are now different ways to reach kids.

I had Nuns with rulers. OMG, nightmare....................

Comm---you are so right on about the PTA murmurers...and how wrong they were..they would be wispering about so & so's gifted child, and I just never said a thing. Then one day my son came home with 4 medals(some dumb 3rd grade assessment test thing & he was on top it turned out).and suddently he was lauded by the teachers at Bester & Eastern all of a sudden! Too funny! And, yes I am a transplant too!

BTW--the children the PTA's murmurers were lauding over by 8th grade were no where near my son, they are just in 'regular' classes..and now he is in Calculus part I & loves it--he struggles, but I figure in College he'll have an easier time taking the course as he already took it..don't care if he getst the AP credit or not..

Checkin--yup, alot alike..our stories...

I thought fifth grade was a bit early, too, but if you think about it, we are just asking fifth graders to learn processes for solving these problems............if we tell them that up front and stop insisting that they get each and every problem right the first time (a definate exercise in patience for any fifth grade teacher!!!) it does not seem like a big deal. The only true problem with this is that fifth graders have not existed in their current lifetimes long enough to have worked extensively with numbers, and all the other skills they are required to master, and this is all new to them.

Don't even get me started on kindergarten. With "no child left behind", it is abundantly clear that we are not allowing our children to be children anymore.

Argh!! PTA murmerers!!! They are all nuts. I wanted to actually teach some American history to the children at a 4th grade level, and was told by one such murmerer that her son might find that "overwhelming"! Being the subtle and softspoken soul that I am, , I informed her that we offer special classes for kids who find themselves "overwhelmed" that easily. This math can be a different story, though, if not taught well.

"No child left behind", OMG on so many levels. It has actually united all levels of students/parents/teachers into saying ugh.
It is a unifier. Make me sick. ...................

Back to math, hate it but I had really harsh teachers. They do a much better job now.
Oh, and Sister Ihadaruler, I do not use math in my job. Maybe a calculator twice a year but no Algebra or Calculus.

Sorry, having math flashbacks.

Agree with all who remember that educational trends are cyclical, just with different names. "Learning Ruberic" anyone? or "Reading chunking". These are terms they pulled out as new ideas that cost a lot of money to develop. Most of it was simple word or number identification, or memorization skills.

Trust me, they weren't just starting the idea 3 years ago. More like 25-30 years ago.

Snoopy--They had just started it in the middle school here. My sister took it in 8th grade in CT in 1975. H-town just re-invents the wheel--if they had it 25-30 yrs ago, they forgot it & now brought it back.

NCLB--you can tell it was written by a drunk...it leaves no child to fail until they hit real life.

Maybe so. Ole Mrs. Seburn @ BMS drilled it into the mush that is my gray matter waaay back when. It was nice starting HS with one class already behind me. Unfortunately, it just encouraged me to coast more...

After re-reading your original post, I have a query of you: Most college degrees require some type of Calculus--business calculus for business majors and all science and math disciplines, so the only degrees really which do not require this higher level math are the 'liberal arts' degrees, correct?

So, unless you aim to be a teacher, a journalist or a social worker type you need higher level math, right?

At my college Calculus was required for Engineers, Chemistry majors, and math majors. Business students are not required to take any math above college algebra. My problem is that normal to low level students are forced to take algebra II, geometry, and sometimes higher. I was a high level student I have NO problem with high level students taking geometry, if they can handle it fine, just don't force regular students to take higher level math classes each year, and that seems to be what is going on. More is expected out of 5th grade students now than before, high level or no. I never said they were forcing geometry on middle schoolers, but if you are in the high level track, you stay in the high level track, and I'm sure those students can handle it.

It's nice that all of your children understand geometry and are smart, but what about you when you went to school, what math classes did they offer then? Compare. THAT is what I'm saying. I didn't mean for this topic to be so hostile

Like my PTA meetings: talk about math and levels and my kid vs your kid and it gets like this. It starts out polite but unravels.UGH...............

EDIT: I believe all mean well, its just a personal and polarizing topic. We all love our kids. It is human nature to think everyone takes the path we took when we were kids. I am always surprised when I learn of a different slant.

Love all children, accept they are all different. Embrace those differences. Realize they master skills at individual rates. Sometimes the Math circuitry never kicks in, if you are like that then you will understand some of the struggle. If your kid is like that then you will know. The important thing is you try, and try to be the best you can.

There are good kids who try, good teachers who teach to the individual, and caring parents.
And it still takes their (grammar alert) kid eons to get what your kid got four years ago. That is why when people say the jobs are in xyz, train for those jobs. A lot may depend where your skill base is and your potential for pursuing that type of degree. Some will do it with ease, others will struggle, maybe others will choose a path outside of Math. A path less traveled.

Maybe they will choose to work with people. It happens.

I don't think this topic really got hostile. It's just that many of us have kids, and when one has kids, what's best for them becomes very, very important. It becomes an all-encompassing responsiblity, and no one wants to see ANY kid's needs neglected.

i don't stress about it. as long as my kids turn into a well-rounded human beings, with a solid education and the ambition to work towards a careeer they will be personally proud of, i really dont care WHAT year they are taught algebra.

http://www.smcps.k12.md.us/offices/dci/pro..._Diploma_AP.pdf

The completer program link above states the student must take 4 math courses to include 1 of Algebra + 1 of Geometry. That is it.

The rest of the upper level maths are for students who wish to go on to college. If you can't do geometry, how are you going to manage college?

And yes, 30 years ago we had Algebra & Geometry in late middle school and high school. It was required, just like Biology and Chemistry. So was PE..1 year and the lovely shop class & health...

HCC and community colleges are offering a math curriculum for those needing remediation or skill building before they done in high school and be complete the required college Math Courses. The students taking the completer that you described are counseled to take a semester or two at a community college, or earn an associates there before transferring. If they are shooting to be successful in a BA/BS program. That way they can build skills if needed and complete core requirements. The completers are codes for tracks, it all the same as when we grew up.

I've had kids in a completer & in IB or AP programs.

Many kids who struggled with math in high school pretty much know to go to HCC and apply themselves if a four year degree is on their agenda. Resources at HCC to be top notch. HCC is where the rubber meets the road, or whatever that phrase is. HCC makes it happen.

The only one affected is the student and family. They are hard workers, not burdens to the tax payer. We parents, or kids that work, pick up the tab for the extra math courses. That may help explain how some of the completers work out. It all catches up to the student. They pay in time and money to redo what some obtain in High School, a strong foundation in Math.

Agree: it would be best to get the MATH all done in high school and test out competently. Wish it happened.

I am thankful for HCC. I remember 30 yrs ago too, some of my siblings had Algebra in Middle School, one sibling completed it much later. When I was in School, I recall a range of grades that kids started Algebra. If a kid could not do it, they worked up to it. My siblings all graduated despite when they took Algebra. They are highly educated, despite varying start times for Algebra. They seem happy & successful.

I agree about the my kid vs your kid thing, that's probably where the hostility is coming from, but it's not what I intended to talk about.

No, you didn't have geometry in middle school, you are confused about what geometry I'm talking about. I said NOT area, perimeter, volume, fill in the angle. I'm talking proofs, lots of formulas and logical thinking. Sure you had pre algebra in middle school 30 years ago x+3=5 guess and check. Not coordinate planes, matrices, solving 1 and 2 step equations such as 3y+2=9 and so on.

About the requirements: you are required to have 4 mathematics classes, 1 algebra, 1 geometry, ok, and that's 2...so what are the other two?? Your choices are algebra 2, statistics, pre calc/trig, and calculus, thats it. There used to be a low level business math, now I think there is accounting. Even with those two requirements that still puts normal level students in high level math classes, which is what I'm saying.

By the way, in college you have to take placement exams in English and in math. If you don't place high enough you have to take what are called "developmental classes" which don't count for credit, but you are required to pass before taking college algebra, or the college math you need for your major. There are two levels of these classes at my college, DVMT 95, and 100. DVMT 95 students learn how to add fractions, solve basic equations, it's basically pre algebra, or what your 6th and 7th grade students are taking. These students got into college, but don't know how to add fractions, solve basic equations, and do very basic level math. There are about 100 students in DVMT 95, because they need DVMT 95 before they can take any other math classes. Even if you are an English major you have to take some sort of math, so low level math students with those majors stop there. People that want to be business, science, or math majors have to take DVMT 100 before they can take college algebra. I taught this class while at college, it is equivalent to algebra 2 in high school, which is the class you take after geometry.

So about the "if you can't handle geometry you shouldn't be in college" what do you think about the hundreds of students at college who are taking high school math classes and middle school math classes for no credit?

I'm getting the impression that everyone on here is highly intelligent and great at math, and that isn't true for everyone. I'm asking you to consider the math we are forcing on low and normal level students. Personally, I feel that algebra II is too difficult for many students, yet students need it to graduate, and don't argue with me about that. There are 4 math classes they have to take, algebra and geometry are two, that leaves two more, algebra II is one of them, maybe they can take accounting as the fourth, but that still leaves algebra II. Algebra II is writing equations, graphing inequalities, graphing equations, solving systems of equations, parabolas, hyperbolas, matrix opperations (+,-, X,), quadratic equations, and more

Agree:

If you have no exposure to these different routes to a college degree you do not realize that there are many paths to a BA/BS. Some take a road less traveled, not everyone in college was in AP Math or 7th Grade Algebra. It has been that way for decades. I have known people, and been related to people, who now have advanced degrees. They took remedial math or the courses outlined above, at a community college. Depending on their (grammar alert) degree, they had to take all the required higher level college math. That added time and money. That is life.



It is understandable, if you have never been there or known someone like that, chances are you may be unaware. There are people outside our families, or us super achievers, who get there. They achieve their goals, sometimes college, via a different road map.

You can repeat this again and again but there are those who truly believe one's future is nailed by grade 9 or 12th. They are kind and generous, but have no frame of reference for unique learners, or circumstances, that land you in HCC's remedial classes. Granted, we all agree it is easier & cheaper if one has the foundation by 8th grade and takes advanced classes. No argument there. But there are many fine professionals who have earned a BA/BS. Some went on to earn a masters and doctorate. And they were on a community college track like you describe. I salute them, it must of been a hard and long road to that diploma. How sweet.

Definitely, I agree that a good teacher can make all of the difference. The good thing about the developmental class I taught were that I could spend some one on one time with the students that needed help. The classes were mostly computer based, so I could have a few students come up to the front with me and work on a difficult topic and they were able to catch up in the lessons at home. Teachers need to be able to related to students. I had trouble understanding Algebra II when I was in high school even though I had a good grade. It is also difficult to remember information over long periods of time. Students who took algebra II in 10th grade have almost 3 years before they take their placement tests in college and it is easy to forget information over that time. College is not only for students who are great at math, and I agree that many people can get BA/BS and go on to do great things without being exceptional at math. Every time I tell people I'm a math major they tell me "I hated math" "Math was my worst subject," most people on here seem to be the opposite. Again, I think that's partially the teacher, if you teachers that weren't able to help you, and you didn't understand basic concepts, it's easy to just give up and say that you hate math. I'd like to be that teacher that lets students feel that they CAN do it. I try to break every concept down into simple steps. But, I can't teach students who don't want to learn. I can't do much for students that HAVE to take algebra II to graduate and it's their third time taking it and they hate math and they don't feel like doing anything and they don't get it and they don't care...you get the picture Those are the students that give me gray hairs, THAT is why I don't think everyone should have to take algebra II, that is why I'm questioning if I want to be a teacher. Wish me luck

I definitely agree that a good teacher can make a world of difference. I was always traumatized by geometry, and in large part I think that's due to the fact that the football coach at my high school taught my 10th-grade geometry class. I'd go to him for help, and I don't think he knew what the hell he was doing. I think there are probably more of those kinds of teachers out there than we realize. Of course, math was never my strongest subject, but I managed to get A's and B's in algebra and trig in high school (got a C in geometry though). I was an English major in college and just took a basic math course to get my math credit (this was at a 4-year college, and no, it wasn't remedial math). Somehow I've managed to become a well-rounded, successful adult despite my lack of college-level algebra, trig, geometry, and calculus. I do agree that not all kids are cut out for higher-level math courses and can still go on to become productive members of society.

..and conversely in my case I think my Geometry teacher must have been one of the coolest teachers EVER. Not only was he a great guy and really could relate to the kids on one level, but he also was amazingly good at conveying the subject matter. Even the stuff that he admitted was nothing but rote memorization, he got us motivated and showed us ways to memorize it.

My algebra II teacher was a coach also, but now that I've seen him teach he's actually not that bad, it was probably just a difficult subject for me.

The teacher I was mentoring with allows students to use note cards on test and they can write as much on them as they want, they still don't use them, don't care, don't want to learn, etc.

Geometry has not changed. It is and was theorem based with an exercise in logical thinking. And Algebra was Algebra, matrices and all. Complex equations etc.

The requirements are 4 math credits. The high schools around here have at least one pre-algebra and a few other lower level regular addition/subr/mult math classes that you can use to fill up the 4 requirement. One of my neighbors children took intro to alg this year and will take alg 1 next year and geo the year after. Then they can take a statistics class or a different math...

Hmm...At south they have algebra 1 I think as the lowest class, that must be the difference. In Alleghany County they do have pre algebra, and a lower class called math 9. They do have a math at south for low level students now that I think of it, it's called fundamental math maybe.

It-I think this will help:





Math Classes Available at WC Secondary Schools--ie HS:

Lower LEVEL MATH
Foundations of Mathematics
Introduction to Algebra I

Algebra I
Honors Algebra I
Algebra II
Honors Algebra II
Applied Algebra

Geometry
Honors Geometry
Extended Geometry

Introduction To Statistics
Advanced Placement Statistics

These 2 are at the IB HS:
IB Mathematics Studies (SL)
IB Mathematics Standard Level (SL)

Honors Pre Calculus/Trigonometry
Honors Calculus
Advanced Placement Calculus

Accounting I

Yes! See when teachers would talk about "Intro" I didn't know WHAT they were talking about. It did seem strange that they were putting all students into algebra I, thanks

I'm doing my internship now in Middletown with middle school students. Can you believe these 7th graders know how to solve systems on linear equations, I feel stupid...