Give some feed back as to what you think. Is this steek and cheese shope owner discriminating against customers that can't speak English.???
'Speak English' Signs OK at Philly Shop
By PATRICK WALTERS,AP
Posted: 2008-03-20 13:59:55
Filed Under: Law News, Nation News
PHILADELPHIA (March 20) - The owner of a famous cheesesteak shop did not discriminate when he posted signs asking customers to speak English, a city panel ruled Wednesday.


Photo Gallery

Matt Rourke, AP Cheesesteak Shop Wins
Discrimination Hearing1 of 5 The owner of a famous Philadelphia cheesesteak shop scored a victory in a racially charged debate over a sign he posted in 2005. The Commission on Human Relations panel found that two signs at Geno's Steaks telling customers, "This is America: WHEN ORDERING 'PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH,'" do not violate the city's Fair Practices Ordinance.





In a 2-1 vote, a Commission on Human Relations panel found that two signs at Geno's Steaks telling customers, "This is America: WHEN ORDERING 'PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH,'" do not violate the city's Fair Practices Ordinance.

Shop owner Joe Vento has said he posted the signs in October 2005 because of concerns over immigration reform and an increasing number of people in the area who could not order in English.

Vento has said he never refused service to anyone because they couldn't speak English. But critics argued that the signs discourage customers of certain backgrounds from eating at the shop.

Commissioners Roxanne E. Covington and Burt Siegel voted to dismiss the complaint, finding that the sign does not communicate that business will be "refused, withheld or denied."

In a dissenting opinion, Commissioner Joseph J. Centeno said he thought the signs did discourage some customers.

"The sign appeared immediately above another sign that had the following words: 'Management Reserves the Right to Refuse Service,'" Centeno wrote.

Geno's and its chief rival across the street, Pat's King of Steaks, are two of the city's best known cheesesteak venues. A growing number of Asian and Latin American immigrants have moved into the traditionally Italian neighborhood in recent years.

Vento had threatened to go to court if he lost. His attorney, Albert G. Weiss, said he was "pleasantly surprised" by Wednesday's decision.

"We expected that this was not going to go our way," Weiss said.

In February 2007, the commission found probable cause against Geno's for discrimination, alleging that the policy discourages customers of certain backgrounds from eating there.

The case went to a public hearing, where an attorney for the commission argued that the sign was about intimidation, not political speech. The matter then went to the three-member panel for a ruling.

W. Nick Taliaferro, the commission's executive director, said he would not appeal.


Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
2008-03-20 08:38:24

A polite request to speak English equated to illegal discrimination? Well, in a flaming liberal city like Philly maybe, but not in most parts of this nation.

Legally-speaking, it could ony be so if one succeeded in arguing that an inability to speak English was a defining charactestic of one or more protected minorities. For example the far more direct "we refuse to serve Hispanics" would absolutely qualify as illegal discrimination. Asking people to please order in English, on the other hand, is certainly not so clear cut.

Sorry if you can't speak english don't make it my problem, I wouldn't deal with someone I couldn't communicate with. We have enough money being wasted on translation services in places like hospitals and schools.

Thanks BMICONcharacteristic
After I read the article I thought this man was only doing what he as an American wanted to do. Force the immigrant's to come in and respect him being an American and owning his own business that he pays dear taxes on. Sorry but I feel more should do this. Gonna get slammed on that one. I mean if we as American's travel abroad we have to learn at least some of the language spoken or we starve. I think more should start doing this.

This is good news.

If you want to live in this country speak English, it's that simple.

Unfortunately, the United States doesn't have an official language.

My personal opinion is that business owner should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason. I would have no issue what so ever if a mexican restaurant would request to order in Spanish.

I'm glad they didn't do the same thing when I was in Mexico or I would've starved.

Legally-speaking, you ALMOST can. The legal limit though is that you cannot refuse someone on the basis of being a member of a protected minority.

Bent
Now that is Racism. I agree with going to a mexican resturant and if they want you to use Spanish then use it or be refused. AS Long as the owners and all it's employees are legal here in our country. I personally feel that English should be adopted into the Untied States as the ONLY language used here and if you don't like it get out!!!!!

As stated before I believe that a business owner should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason. I did not say that I think that it is ok to put offensive signs up. With that said if a business owner does not want to serve me because I wear glasses, I am over 200lbs (he thinks I may eat too much), I am white, I have a beard; I have no issue. His business not mine. I also don't understand why I would want to purchase anything in this store.

Please do not respond to his ignorant comment. I have already reported it as offensive. I recommend others do the same. He continues to bait and flame this forum, at will. Why the mods and admins have not taken action is beyond me. I do hope others will report this blatant racist comment. I don't believe the modsquad takes me serious. :shrug: So hopefully if someone other than I reports this it might be acted upon.

Just for clarity, I am recommending you report Bentcorner's racist post. Thank you.

I reported it just now.

Bent, I will be happy to splain (Intentional grammar slight) it via a PM. I will break it down.

It is Easter for goodness sake. I would think a cease fire would be in order.

Thank you CH. God Bless you.

So, you guys that are outraged say it's OK to call somebody a foul name, as long as you don't spell it the whole way out. Once somebody spells it out, it becomes a problem?

Humor Alert: Its a rumble ala West Side Story. Just kidding.

Ok, I'm a dim to moderate bulb on some things. Do not measure anything by what I say or do. If you agree, it is ok. If not that is ok too. We can still get along. And wander back to a topic. Just a 40 yr old housewife, from Hagerstown, online.

TOPIC: In my travels I have found I have gotten better service in a dining establishment when I, or someone in my group, knew the language. So from a self serving perspective, I would either engage in the language at hand or be in a posse with those who speak it. My take home lesson would be, if in a dining establishment and you can not read the menu or ask a question, try to be with someone who can. Or you may get a plate of snails, if you can not read escargot.

....Of course I would never throw anyone out of an establishment because our languages differed. On one hand, it would be morally wrong. How would I want to be treated if I was in a far off place? Kind of the golden rule effect.
For a business owner, it would be lost revenue from a potential paying customer. Two rationales to consider. I am sure most will not see the big deal in being flexible, either form a moral or financial stand point.

At the end of the day, A dollars is the same no matter who hands it over. The owner has to be vested in making a sale.

I can't imagine putting any sign up that would potentially turn away, valid, paying customers, but I'm not a business owner. My mom, a small business owner, would disagree. She has a list as long as her arm of people she'd like to keep out (cell phone users, unruly kids, drunks, to name a few).

I've also never understood businesses that post political candidate signs in the storefronts. In today's political climate, it just seems too divisive and likely to alienate customers.

Okay, I think I got everything.

Please folks, lets keep the discussion civil. If you want to discuss racism, feel free, but offensive terms will not be tolerated.

Calling other posters offensive names in here, also will not be tolerated.

And, I don't give a crap about something being left out of the guidelines... racially offensive or sexually offensive terms will not be tolerated.

bentcorner has been given a two day suspension for his use of a racially offensive term, beginning with the time of this reply.

Thank you all for the pm's, and for the record, I received many pm's from many different posters.

Please clean up your language or face suspension.

Two days, that's a start. I could've sworn I got a week for flaunting a non-vulgarity. But oh well.



Modedit:

No, you were initially give a 48 hour suspension. Your continued testing of the mod patience earned you the subsequent extra time.

Now, please play nicely and quit the baiting.

And don't edit this post, other than to delete it.

Look Folks I didn't post this or bring this to the forums for a racism posting or slander. I'm offended by what was said because of my wife and I's friends an right down to it my own nieces and nephews. Theres no need in this for the race crap ok. Leave it out!!!!!!!!! What I am asking for is if you feel this man has a legal right to make this request? That's it plain and simple. Don't be posting any more of the racist comments.
Mod's.
Thank you for seeing this an stopping it. I applaud you for it. Thank you.

Nope. It's not discrimination to ask your customers to communicate in a language you can understand. And on the East Coast, there are lots of different groups of people who speak lots of different languages; however, I would not want to turn away potential business, so I would do everything I could to try to understand everyone. Also, I can easily imagine a situation of not being able to hire help that speaks every language spoken in an urban locale, so I do not think this is discrimination at all. Everyone should learn at least one other language, though.

Patton
Are you referring to his Racist comment alone of the fact that Bent always comes at me with anything I post??? I didn't have to report it and frankly I wasn't going to anyhow because every time I reported him on some other issues nothing got done. So I figure why should I ?????? But this time he got 48 hours.

It seems to me if you want to do business and make money, then you serve paying customers whether they speak your language or not.

So, is this guy just frustrated that he can't figure out what his new customers want to buy, or is he angry that there are too many foreigners taking over the area.... you know, what is the real reason behind the sign. If a person can't speak english, they probably can't read the sign either.

So, if he really wanted the business, why not make pictures like they have in Chinese restuarants. You can just point.

I speak English but I have been places where I could not hear what the people serving me were saying and had to have them write it out or have someone sign for me. If we have residents who can not speak english, there are other ways to communicate if you want. Businesses could have a Spanish/english dictionary on hand.

I realize this is inconvient, but put yourself in their shoes. If you moved to China, honestly, how long do you think it would take you to learn the language?? This is real life. English is not the universal language.

maybe they could have a menu that has both english and spanish, but for the sake of the employees, if that is what they are really concerned with, request that order's be made in english?? i have been to restaurants that ask that you order in a foreign language, and i have not been the least bit offended. i'm not sure why this is even a big deal. i think people are so eager to jump on the "racial discrimination" bandwagon, we find ourselves getting upset about the strangest of things. this is no different, IMO, than asking patrons to wear a tie, accompany person's under 12 to a buffet, or remove their shoes.

I've seen several places with signs in the last week, including a bank, that they won't serve you if you're yacking on a cell phone. Of course, they word it more politely than that, but I agree it's a good policy.

Agree with the cell phone issue during sales transactions:
That is a budding area that will eventually come to a head. Has not been addressed but I know it is a growing annoyance.

Everyone I know recalls being in line at the grocery store and waiting on someone to finish up a call before punching in their PIN # or credit button. Always happens right at the wrap up of a transaction. The poor cashier is waiting. Amazing.
The customer is oblivious that the line is growing and that we all hear the details of the call.

Sorry I digressed, guess the cell phone with customers multi tasking, despite a crowd, is eating at me.

Growing up that was the acceptable term that we were taught to use by the Catholic nuns, as opposed to "colored people", which is how my mom, who didn't have a racist bone in her body referred to Blacks her whole life.

Personally, I thought Bent was making a point against racism, unless there was some other post I didn't see.

I felt the same way about it Idiot. Bent's not known for being racist, and I thought he was pointing out the effects of discrimination in a more profound way. Though I understand how the term he used is less than acceptable in this day and age.

Riiiiight

Gotcha.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic.

The sign is fine.

Learn the language please.

One thing I thought the Army did well was, all new soldiers being assigned in Germany had to go through a language familiarization course. Good Idea. The Germans didn't care if you spoke the language well, they just wanted you to try. Is that to much to ask?

I don't understand what everyone is getting so (bent) out of shape for. Although I disagree with about 150% of everything that Bent types, I in no way feel that his post was racist at all. If we go back and look at it; he ask me if it would be ok to put that sign up. It was a dig on me and not him being racist. Now I think that he is goofy for making such an assumption but have no problem with him asking the question. Hopefully I answered it for him.

For those of you that are confused I believe that as a business owner I should be able to serve whoever I please and not serve whoever I don't please. Regardless of any reason as stated before and I feel that any other business owner should have the same right. If a person put up a sign that said sorry we do not serve white people, I would not support the business. If a buffett put up a sign stating no one over 250lbs. That's ok with me. I wish more places would put up signs that state NO ONE UNDER 25 years old or NO CELL PHONES or TAKE A BATH BEFORE SERVICE IS RENDERED.

I think the issue was an isolated case, with multiple issues, maybe racism was mentioned but other triggers came into play. It was a group of stuff. Stuff builds up we are not aware of. It happens to many of us. And we return and post on another day. For what it is worth, I think it was multiple possibilities not mentioned. It is over and we are back on topic. A small bump in the road. It happens within on line forums. I am not bent about anything.

RE: TOPIC

Dining Establishments: Not a big issue, I can see all working out. A little compromise, a little talk, and happy customers.

I had no idea the flack and subsequent ban was over that post, that's how much of a non-issue it was to me. I figured he got smacked for the exchange with McGee over "d-head".

While certainly it was a highly loaded question posed by bent, it was very on-topic.

dammit. enough.


now then. i was thinking. and it isn't as if this is some ethic restaurant. it was a cheese steak place. the owner was not discriminating on skin color. he didn't say "no Hispanics". he said "order in English" i don't think that is unreasonable. if he doesn't understand Spanish, and the customer had a special request like "i am so allergic to onions! " and he didn't get that and just gave them the standard order, they break out and sue him and now its HIS problem.

Was Bentcorner suspended for what he said, for the word he used, or for how he said it?

You'll have to ask ModSquid.

Bent's post is still in it's original form/context, except for the mod added **** through some of the word. You make the call.

There was nothing remotely racist about what BentCorner wrote. In fact, the argument he was making, as others have pointed out, was against racism.

I'll spare the forum, and its more delicate members, a more lengthy opinion on this. But I will beg and plead with all of you to go read the blog entry I posted today on the subject of Bent's punishment for his "racially offensive" language. I've linked to it right here. There are a few examples in there of actual racially offensive language, so to those of you unable to distinguish between genuine bigotry and a criticism of it, be warned.

The moderator who publicly banned Bent for "racially offensive" language and edited the original post to make it appear he actually wrote something much worse, and everyone who complained about it to precipitate the ban, ought to be ashamed of themselves. If Bent comes back when his ban is over, everyone responsible owes him a public apology.

Your blog entry is spot on. Good take.

Oh, ok.

I think it's pretty obvious who initiated the action against Bent. Read thru the threads, the same guy who has had a grudge against Bent since about day one.

I initially didn't like Bent much, but he speaks his mind, and I think he's far from a racist. Heck, he hates everyone!

But I really do have a question. Is N*gro offensive to everyone as N*gg**? Personally, I don't use either of those terms, and the first term was used for a number of years before it was changed to African or African American or Black or Black American.

So, is the first term offensive generally? or totally? or just in some circumstances?

I assumed he had used the one and only racially ofensive term that starts with the letter "n" that most of us know. If, as has been reported elsewhere, he simply used the correct word for the race to which he was intending to make reference, then indeed, he did nothing wrong and this is a case of political correctness run amok. Heaven forbid any of us Caucasians uses a similarly offensive word, like maybe "Asian".

If that word is so offensive, where do they get off having a college fund named after it? ... see http://www.uncf.org

i think perhaps that word that he used is considered offensive and racist due to the usage in an extremely discriminatory era in our nation's history. just like when a certain other poster used a derogatory abbreviation for Japanese people a few months back... i'm not saying it was right or wrong to ban him over.. that's not my call... i'm just saying it isnt the first time a big stink has resulted from the use of a word that some people consider just as offensive as profane racism.

Just wanted one final post, to save you all some energy. Continue if you are compelled or enjoying it. Other posters have said it was other issues, there is a typical focus on one element that may or may not of factored in to the Mod's deliberation. It is not the deciding factor. There is a simple but broader dynamic.....................It was probably a lot simpler than what is being vented. many others have been suspended and banned, it happens to many.

wiki has this

"Negro is a term referring to people of Black African ancestry. Prior to the shift in the lexicon of American and worldwide classification of race and ethnicity in the late 1960s, the appellation was accepted as a normal neutral formal term both by those of African descent as well as non-African blacks. Now it is often considered an ethnic slur[1][2][3] although the term is still used in some contexts for historical reasons such as in the name of the United Negro College Fund[4]. "


"It fell out of favor by the 1970s in the United States after the Civil Rights movement. However, it is necessary to note that older African Americans from the period when "Negro" was considered acceptable, initially found the term "Black" more offensive than "Negro". Evidence for this is in historical African-American organizations and institutions' utilization of the term--such as the United Negro College Fund. In current English language usage, "Negro" is generally considered acceptable in a historical context or in the name of older organizations, as in Negro spirituals, the United Negro College Fund or the Journal of Negro Education. The U.S. Census now uses the grouping "Black or African American."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

You obviously spent the night at a Holiday Inn Express.

In my report of Bent's post I stated he was trying to take the thread off track and begin a race discussion, when that was not the intent of the thread. Thank you very much and have a nice day.


Even if you are not, I am going to uphold my end of the truce, Mr. Yossarian.... FOR NOW

this would be a good time for Dave Chappelle's " Ask a black person" segment... where is paul mooney when you need him!?

You mean like 64 years ago when UNCF was established? I have NEVER heard that specific word used in a derogatory manner. In fact, that word was considered to be the most accepted term for a long time. I've never heard of it being considered unacceptable until today.

Does that mean I can't talk about Asian pears on here, or Asian ginseng? I assumed Bent had used the slang "n" word, too. Which makes me wonder, as I did from the beginning of all this, if this is really about what he said, how he said it, or how people respond to him?

Okay.

After careful consideration of all the factors involved, and rereading the initial post and the subsequent replies. I have reconsidered my original judgement.

Bentcorner used the term "Negro" and not the other "N-word", for the record.

After researching the term "Negro", it does not appear to have the same connotation that the other "N-word" has. While his post may or may not have had anything to do with the nature of the thread is not being considered. It did not take the post off-topic (anymore than what anyone else has ever done).

Bentcorner has my sincerest apologies for my hasty decision and is hereby reinstated.

Had someone else made the same statement, I doubt there would have been such an outcry for banishment.

If you care to discuss this decision, please do not do it in this thread. Start another topic.

Dave is a master -

Racist