Kind of contradicts the usual stuff you hear about promoting downtown, hmmmm. We have so many empty stores and empty new houses near us that I throw up my hands on any logic. Empty, empty, build, build. It does give a jump to the city's tax base. That is what is said at some previous meetings. Who knows? Some development makes no sense to some, and is good news for others. Round and round.......

Wow, 9,000 jobs pushing clothes, hamburgers and tickets for the latest Rambo flick. Oh yeah changing sheets on beds too, forgot that one. How about a technology park, with some real jobs so we can save GAS instead of having to drive down the road? Just my 2 cents.

man, don't they realize that this is exactly WHY some of us moved to this area? it had enough "shopping" to get by, enough variety to not have to drive too far to find what you're looking for, but not OVERKILL. this sounds like overkill.

i'll try not to be too pessimistic until we find out exactly what "retail" they're putting in, but it doesn't sound promising....

More traffic on an already over loaded roadway. Can the city handle more sewer and water usage?
For now I don`t see how this would be a good deal for the city. The city needs to have the empty buildings revampted first.
9,000 jobs ?? Homes, figuring 2 cars per house hold. That is alot of traffic in that area.

I'm waiting on the wage snobbery to start. Ya know people, someone making minimum wage would LOVE an $8-$9 ph job. Somebody has to clean up and serve all you rich .................people. (there. I was nice). Someone has to stock and tag and sell the clothes and other goodies to all you SUV driving materialistic............people.

I guess one of my initial reactions is: This is a very windy road w/o any shoulders and it will be a mess and take alot of work to make it easy to get around..so, why would we re-zone this area? Just because some company bought the land on spec? There is alot of vacant commerical land available, so why should we re-zone an area just to make one company a profit?

Anyone else see the money in this whole change the zone thing? I smell payola..

hey, i drive an suv, and my clothes look like something johnny rotton donated to goodwill. the last "goodie" i bought was a donkey shaped cookie cutter. then again, i'm drivin' a '94 explorer full of fishing equipment and cheez-its... so i'm not sure i fall into that category anyhow.

Can someone please just get Bowman to finish the project downtown first before they start over developing the outskirts of town?

I mean seriously...this thing is never going to be finished and in the mean time there will be a small town constructed out there in the farm land.

I don't get it.

I have it from a good source that the public hearing for this annexation will not take place tonight because there are conflicts with it and the draft Comprehensive Plan which they will also be talking about tonight. It will be delayed until Aprill 22 until that issue is resolved.

It would be silly to think that this land will not be developed given its location relative to the interstate but there are an awful lot of unanswered questions at this point. My understanding is that a new intersection on Route 40 with signal would be constructed in the area of Hamilton Nissan/Younger Toyota that would access this site as well as secondary access from Landis Road.

How about a tunnel under Rt 70?!

That worked so well for the airport....

I think it is a great idea. Can't wait till all of the new store open up.

I recently heard that Washington County already has the third highest retail per citizen in the country! At they same time, there is over a million square feet of dark retail space that is sitting unused. Even Mr. Shaool has abandoned buildings in the City and County while he's building more. This is not "smart growth."

SC, I haven't heard of any technology businesses banging downt he door at the City or the County, have you?

As I stated in my State of the City Address, " Some people would have you belive that retail jobs, warehouse jobs, and any job paying ten dollars and hour or less is a bad thing. These businesses offer people first time jobs, part-time jobs and pave the way for bigger industry. The employees of these businesses need to buy groceries, visit the local convenient store, buy clothes, eat lunch, buy vehicles, open bank accounts and yes, maybe even purchase a home. When a large corporation looks for amenities for it's emplyoees', we will have positioned ourselves to catch the attention of the large, higher paying employers to want to locate here."

If the council ever really intends to be agressive about economic development, we must act agressive. The outsourcing of a recruiter for Hagerstown and Washington County is mandatory if we are to compete with the Fredericks and Gaithersburgs of the world. Our economoic development commission does an outstanding job on the throw aways of the State, but we must take it a step further and go seek these companies out. We must sell what we have to offer here in our community, the small town charm with some bigger city amenities.

So Bob-you're for this or against the re-zoning issue?

At last count, Washington County was still 49% agricultural. I'd really prefer that figure not to get any smaller. If I wanted big city amenities, I'd move to the big city.

jmho

on second thought. i hate that raging "cow smell"

And who's fault is that Mr. Mayor. Why aren't the City and County aggressively targeting tech businesses to come here? Many of the federal government agencies are opening facilities within 50 miles of here. We have 2 and 4 year colleges in the neighborhood and the I-95 corridor is big on tech. Those businesses were looking for places to expand and grow. Why not us? I brought this up three years ago when I ran for your job. We need to start going after these businesses and get them here.

Start by planning and hosting some high tech events and conferences. Get the tech people here. Then when they get here show them the area. Let them meet the reps from the schools and show them the facilities. Offer them deals to get them here.

The problem is no one and I mean no one in our government on the local level is ever willing to take a chance. We bring retail and warehouses because that is what we have always done.

The time is right for someone to step and be a leader and innovator and go after tech jobs. I want to know, are you going to be the man that does that or are you going to be like the rest of these so called politicians and be more worried about keeping your job than doing your job?

Amen Tony! You are referring to the fact that the people who work in Wash DC corridor already live here--the worker bees and they would love to just go and drive <10mi. to work rather than 60-70 ea way.

So, IMHO, we don't need no more stinkin' fastfood/generic clothing shops...

Maybe as a newbie I should have let this go another day or two. Nah this is more fun. Bob, I don't disagree that people need jobs to pay (ever increasing) bills, buy groceries, clothes etc. I'll be the first to admit that if it weren't for those kinds of jobs I never would have made it through college myself. I guess now that I do have a nice job (not retail) right here in Hagerstown (where I was born and raised), I see a lot of other people driving down the road for their "better jobs" buying their gas and having a nice lunch outside of Hagerstown, spending money that could go into our tax base, if we had those better job right here. I agree with Tony, get those tech jobs and other companies (architects, engineers, research and development firms etc.) that are 50-75 miles away to come here. You talk about no tech jobs banging down our door, well why aren't we using our "small town charm with big city amenities" to bang down their door? The one thing that you and I agree on is that Hagerstown and WashCo. needs that recruiter.

My firm has worked on urban revitalization projects and I've had several discussions with Mayor B about this so I can vouch for him in that bringing creative/tech jobs to the area is something he's really interested in doing and working towards because I've seen part of his plan.

In response to attracting tech businesses and building a technology corridor...

http://paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html

As for building new retail centers, I agree with Chip that there is already sufficient space around the area. Heck I don't need to name all of the spots because most people here know them and drive by them every day. I think its great that this area has people that want to invest here, but I just don't think they are all the right types of people; nearly everyone is focused on either retail or residential with a few folks like Dahbura building professional space. Creative/tech jobs simply bring more money to an area than blue collar jobs but some developers see retail space as a quick buck -- find a retailer, lease the space... rather than finding people to fill several spaces in a large building.

One last thing. One project we worked on was in Charleston SC. What was once largely a manufacturing/industrial/port community is now a hugely successful digital corridor. In 5 years they went from 18 technology-based businesses to over 80, and now, local college graduates aren't leaving for Savannah or Jacksonville for jobs... they find them in Charleston.

Now obviously Hagerstown isn't Charleston, Raleigh-Durham, Austin or Silicon Valley, but an adapted model could work.

I'm drawing a blank. What are some of the empty shopping centers around town now? All the ones I remember (Ames, Wal Mart 1, South End SC), except for the Lowes on Wesel, have been redeveloped nicely.

Longmeadow is another one SMan. With the development happening there, it could breathe some life back into it.

South End could use some nicer stores though. (if you're talking about the one across from SHHS)

I can tell that I am the lone supporter of this project. So I would like to know why we can't have the best of both worlds. Why complain about this guy because he wants to bring $240 million into the community and 9,000 jobs. No this is not great paying jobs but that should not stop everyone else from continuing to look for bigger and better industry to move into the area. If anything it should encourage people to bring in more and more. I have heard complaints about why not redevelop empty space, I would assume there is no one area with that much open space. I do have some issue with how or what the city is doing or not doing with some other land (I will start another thread for that).

I believe that this is a great idea but I don't think that it should be the only idea. Development like this and citizens should be encouraging the City and County to find more good paying industry for the area. Maybe something large enough to use the airport that they put millions into.

The only problem I see with it is that the area may not yet be ready for more retail space, YET. The last thing any citizen should want right now is businesses putting each other out of business leaving vacated spaces. I think the retail growth here has been phenomenal, but there needs to be some balance of economic diversity here as well.

Easy there dragon, that had hints of Flipper. Materialistic, suv driving, etc.

After I get my degree next year, it's over the road for me. I've lived here in the city for 20 years I mention this for two reasons. First, since I've noticed when posting in response to the actions of the city on a variety of subjects the question of "do you live in the city?" seems to be a standard follow up question people around here seem to get asked so I thought I'd save time, because if you live in the county then you're probably a Godless Communist just trying to cause mischief with the citizenry of Hagerstown. Or maybe not. Second, I believe I can count on two fingers corporations in the city/county (+500 employees) that are technology related and offer benefits, salary and positions where possessing a bachelors degree might get me somewhere. I can't put my life on hold so the businesses of today on the other side of South Mountain can get there act together, realize what they're missing and get here tomorrow. Or next year, or who knows when.

Oh but for a perfect world. Coma, the Longmeadow Shopping Center is going to be redeveloped. I have seen the plans and it is quite impressive, along with the old Sears store.

As far as the South End having nicer stores, that sounds a bit uppity to me. And I know you are not an uppity person.

As for too much retail, how do we figure that. 8 million people visited the Prime Outlets last year. Two years ago, Walmart was the number one store in the nation.

Two years ago, Mr. Mayor, let's not live in the past.

If you build it, they will come.

well why aren't we using our "small town charm with big city amenities" to bang down their door? The one thing that you and I agree on is that Hagerstown and WashCo. needs that recruiter.

SC, you need to change the mentality of the council. Alesia wants to hire an Economist. Economist are much like meteorologist, they both can be wrong more than 50% of the time and still keep their jobs. If an Economist claims that in the next year this or that will happen and it doesn't, he chalks that up to anyone he can blame but himself.

A recruiter is definitely the way to go. I don't want to hire another "employee" I want the recruiters pay based on what he achieves for the City, or County.

This means traveling and selling Hagerstown and it's 500,000 sq. ft. of empty space in downtown to someone, say, in Arkansas, or Houston etc..

That doesn't explain away the 8 million last year that visited the outlets, now does it?

Now this is one of the best ideas that I have heard from the City.

As for the economist just ask Mr. Scally his opinion, he is right more than 50% of the time.

You misunderstood me MB.

I think Longmeadow is nice and since I live near there, I'm looking forward to see what stores open up. I've been to the new Lowe's and love it. Looking forward to whatever is happening with the old Sears.

Maybe its just been too long since I've been to South End, but last time I was there, there just wasn't much to it that made me think "Oh I have to run out to the South End shopping center for X"! Not trying to sound uppity, I may just be outdated on what's there now.

And finally, I love having the retail that's here now; I enjoy all of my options. I just think that before adding too much more retail, there needs to be some economic diversity to support it all.

People love to buy "factory" seconds. That's the only thing I can think of.

So all we'll be known for is cheaply made junk? Poor Washington County. We want to be more like a bedroom community for the DC mess--complete with some of Bechtel type places here--why can't we? Do we have to settle for more retail junk? I mean the old Lowe's is still open sometimes and not others with fell off the back of the rental furniture...

The old Sears just needs to be knocked over, the Venice Inn--UGH..what an eyesore...we still have empty spots up & down 40...

Maybe I'm just nutso, but right now all I see is more new car parking lots up & down 40 toward 70 and realtor buildings and old sleezy stuff-the locked in 25...


I'd like to see some businesses--not just retail and 'hospitality'. IF that is all you have, you end up a place no one but motel workers lives in, and to make a living every young person leaves...

I believe the keyword I read a few posts ago was "YET". Coma said it best when he suggested a "balance of economic diversity." I'm not against the retail side of development; I'm just opposed to it now. At some point we need to say enough retail is enough and really focus hardcore on the technology/engineering side of that balance; and I think at this point we have enough retail. I agree that there is some re-use of existing buildings happening, Longmeadow is a good example, my company is involved with that; but that type of development needs to happen more often. If we are not careful, people will know when they are in the city limits of Hagerstown when they have driven through the ring of shopping centers and other retail areas that have been built around the city. Think I am joking? Take a look at any recent aerial view of Hagerstown.

Also, I don't argue that Mayor Bob is working to bring Tech and other jobs of the kind to the area. I commend him for his efforts on that, especially given the mentality of the Council he has to work with.

My opinion bottom line? Enough retail, let's focus on the Tech side of the equation. Will it happen overnight? Of course not, but we need to get aggressive and fast. Every new retail building is another chance for an existing one to be run out of business and left for empty; and Hagerstown's Empty Building Syndrome is already bad enough.

And let's not forget COPT is going to bring all the jobs back that left when Fort Ritchie departed.

If you buy that please PM me, I have a miracle cure all for you.

Oh I would love to know what she thinks an economist will do for the city. Another fine example of our City Council having their heads up their a$$. We need people who bringing things to the city not predicting what will happen. If this council gets in again I can save you a lot of money Mr. Mayor. Don't hire the economist, nothing will change. they will do the same thing for another 4 years that they did this time. They will raise taxes, give unfounded raises, raise taxes, make Hagerstown a laughing stock, use their offices to benefit only some citizens or themselves, and did I say raise taxes?

So is this on the agenda for tonight or not? I know, I know, I am a county resident so I do not count..sorry Mayor--but I tried to call 15+min ago to find out from the city council offices & no one answers the phone...since 4:30pm..

Looks like it's still on the agenda:
http://www.hagerstownmd.org/Com_Affairs/Agenda/CM_032508.pdf

I think I remember watching a council meeting and hearing a lot of talk about people from the area not being able to afford to live here.

So by all means lets build some more shopping centers with those high paying jobs.

Ah, never mind.

Actually, it is going to be presented as part of the discussion during the comp plan use hearing. It will be only an argument for the rezoning of the land they want to develop. Does that make sense to you? If not, I'll try to explain it better.

I will read a statement before the public hearing, the hearing for the project will be on the 29th of April, not tonight.

Just a response to this section of the discussion. Not complaining, just responding with a casual mental map from my drive the other day.

Maybe it is a pattern or just looking like it. But when vacant buildings occur there is a ripple effect on quality of life issues. Perhaps it is due to the economy, hard times, deteriorating spaces, or out of area owners. Thankfully, some centers make a great effort. Some have been rehabbed and it has helped neighboring homes. Vacant stores bring loitering, vandalism, and problems, that bleed into neighborhoods. If it is near ones home it is a problem, if one does not live near the empty complexes it is not as noticible. Sadly, there are some centers that look like they may be circling the drain when anchor stores relocate half a mile down the road. Other centers have replacement stores lined up prior to the moves. It varies.

Some are worried that the Fountaindale Center will loose a draw when the Martins moves down the block to the old Gold's Gym. There are rumblings a replacement may or may not be lined up.

Some wonder if the Weiss store will close at its current location when the new one opens across from Long Meadow. Then there is the Giant Eagle. It has been empty for years. It is next to the RiteAide, its located near Rt 11 behind the center that features the silkscreen shop, gun emporium and liquor store. I can't remember the name of the center. Speaking of the center across from the Giant Eagle, the anchor store down there has been vacant for years. There has been some repaving so maybe plans are on the horizon. Neighbors hope with more filled buildings, undesirable problems will decrease. It is wonderful to see signs of improvement..

Very good observations CH. All of these vacant buildings are making us look like one of those old steel towns after the mill closed. Your point about Martins is right on. I don't know if anyone realizes this or not, but this is the fourth time that Martins has built a new building in the north end - all within less than one mile of each other. At least this one, building #4, is being built on the site of building #2. So when it opens, there will only be two former Martins buildings vacant.

I will be patronizing all the new stores as I will go where the products are. People will go where the nicer stores are, makes sense. But if it happens on a large scale, certain areas will always be a little bit near the edge. I imagine the new homes behind the new post office will be excited to be right there, on top of most of their needs. Makes sense that it was developed that way.

For years people have chatted about labels for this progression. One is the ring or ripple affect. Picture how a pond looks if you throw a stone, the ripples or rings spread out, starting at the center. It happens. Does not mean new stores are evil. just that they will have an effect on existing stores and neighborhoods. Again, I am not against progress. I shop at the Outlets and the Mall.

Like the buildings or businesses that left downtown when the Mall went in, and the the others that left after an upscale or multi purpose center opened. The anchor stores left downtown and others followed. The ripple or ring affect is moving from areas outside downtown. Stores near South high or Giant Eagle are often bypassed for newer or remodled centers. Makes sense.

The new center across from Longmeadow is an example. I plan to be a regular customer at the new Weiss and my bank's new location. I will stop shopping and banking at stores closer to downtown. And nearby shops. I won't be there on other business. When Martins moves down the street to a bigger and better store, I doubt I will be checking in at the dry cleaners in Fountainhead. New stores will move into old centers, but sometimes it is years. And then usually never quite up to what was there. The center never quite gets the traffic back.

Anyway, this is old news, no earth shaking info from me. Just what is, and that is ok. It has happened before and will happen again.

I will end up patronizing all the new stores if that is where the products are. People will go where the nicer stores are, makes sense. But if it happens on a large scale, certain areas will always be a little bit near the edge. I imagine the new homes behind the new post office will be excited to be right there, on top of most of their needs. Makes sense that it was developed that way. I get it.

For years people have chatted about labels for this progression. You probably heard it in middle school. So sorry if its redundant. it is just on my mind. Please recognize I do grasp that we need development and progress. I am not saying freze all progress.

One label or concept we all heard over the years is the ring or ripple affect. Picture how a pond looks if you throw a stone, the ripples or rings spread out, starting at the center. It happens. Does not mean new stores are evil. just that they will have an effect on existing stores and neighborhoods. Again, I am not against progress. I shop at the Outlets and the Mall. And will try new places. I go where the prices and selection meets my needs.

Like the buildings or businesses that left downtown when the Mall went in, and the the others that left after an upscale or multi purpose center opened. The anchor stores left downtown and others followed. The ripple or ring affect is moving from areas outside downtown. Stores near South high or Giant Eagle are often bypassed for newer or remodled centers. Makes sense.

The new center across from Longmeadow is an example. I plan to be a regular customer at the new Weiss and my bank's new location. I will stop shopping and banking at stores closer to downtown, and nearby shops. I won't be there on other business. When Martins moves down the street to a bigger and better store, I doubt I will be checking in at the dry cleaners in Fountainhead. I will go to the one going in near the new Martins. Lots of stuff will also be coming to the Food Lion center that is new and half full. New stores will move into old centers. But sometimes it takes years. And then usually never quite up to what was there. The center never quite gets the traffic back.

Anyway, this is old news, no earth shaking info from me. Just what is, and that is ok. It has happened before and will happen again.

okay--i just listened to the whole city council meeting.

I think this is how the things go:

IF the city council annexes the Doub Farm;
THEN they can change the zoning to commercial.

THEN;
IF the County Commissioners okay the annexation;
THEN they were hoodwinked to allow it as the zone is now changed.

The idea is that 80% of the new traffic to this 'cinema & retail mecca' will use the impossible turn around across from the Nissan Dealership--of course the cut thru will have to go across the northbound side of Rt. 40.(near the pink house and the Britt office
).
Which will then necessitate a traffic signal. Which will then back up traffic onto I-70 westbound which will then cost millions to fix the exit from I -70 W as it backs up from the empty Sheraton to I-70W at 4:30-6:00pm now.

Landis Road will thus have at least 20% initially of the traffic to the new strip center. This roadway will then have to be widened along with Day Road, and will cost a fortune to straighten out to avoid traffic accidents and the residents who currently live off these roads will not be able to get home or out of their homes. They already are blocking off Edgewood Road to be the hospital and Mt. Aetna. So--this will be a royal mess, won't it?

And 1 more point: Since BlackRock(Mr. Shaol's other venture) has now bottomed out, what makes anyone think a new strip mall w/a new cinema (we have not been able to keep 2 cinemas running since I have lived here) will end up as a going concern--or just a tax pit? A million dollars in tax revenue is at the best case--100% capacity--so, it will probably end up as a 1/3-1/2 empty rat infested block of cement buildings.

The other issue is the water & sewer. They will pave over the refill zone.

And why not allow the commercial area to be by the bread store and the Flooring place-there is nothing out there and no housing to speak of.

Discussing topics such as this always brings me back to one question - when will downtown Hagerstown ever get back on its feet? With all of the development around Hagerstown, why is relatively nothing privately happening on a larger scale in the downtown area? We have certainly invested a lot of tax dollars there in hopes of revitalization, but when is it going to happen? The mayor is correct in saying that the city needs a recruiter to make this happen. The current direction and speed that the city is going in will just not do it in any of our lifetimes. There needs to be change in the course and it needs to happen soon. The mayor is also correct in saying that the recruiter should work on basically a commission-only basis. The comforts provided by salaries for our public officials have not made much happen in Washington County with the exception of warehouses and retail expansion. For example, in terms of the county, where are all of the promised results that the new airport expansion was supposed to bring? We don't hear anything on that anymore. No new jobs, no commercial flights, nothing. If someone gets paid whether or not they accomplish anything, where is the incentive?

Downtown Hagerstown is worse though. It is drawing away tax dollars to provide things that could be provided more efficiently elsewhere just for the purpose of attempting to revitalize downtown. Take for example one of the other hot topics on the forum right now - the USM Hagerstown 'campus'. For those of you who don't know or don't remember, the USM-H project was originally planned to be added to the campus of HCC. This was decided after much discussion and determination that this was the best location for it. However, at the very last minute, this project was hijacked by a former mayor of Hagerstown with the help of the current mayor. They played up then-Gov. Glendenning’s desire to revitalize the inner cities, and they were successful in changing the course of the USM-H. So we spent $13 million to fix up an old building downtown which now serves as the USM-H center. Now students can attend a 'building' downtown to get their degrees.

However, look at what could have happened had the project gone through as originally planned. The $13 million could have been used to build a much nicer classroom building on the HCC campus. The presence of the USM-H center on the HCC campus would have led to a natural progression for the students all on one campus. It doesn't stop there though. The USM-H students would have had access to the library, computer center, cafeteria, student center, gymnasium, tennis courts, athletic fields, auditorium, amphitheatre, etc. just like college students have and enjoy on many campuses across the country. Instead, the USM-H students have a building and a courtyard - not much of a really enjoyable college experience. While the USM-H is now proud to have about 260 FTE students enrolled, who’s to say that the nice, safe campus environment at HCC wouldn't have attracted 500 or 1,000 students by now for the USM-H? What's even more noticeably negative about the current USM-H center now is the very high expense ratio per student. That is what the other centers in the state are complaining about. USM-H gets $8,000 per student from the state to operate in addition to the tuition and fees the students pay. Other campuses get as little as $70 per student from the state. So the question is: why are the costs of the USM-H so high? Well, since the location chosen makes them basically a stand-alone facility, they can't leverage any of the infrastructures that they could have had they located at HCC - they are completely on their own. Even worse now, according to today's HM, the school says that they need to add more space for students since the building isn't large enough. This is just incredible! We spend $13 million to fix up a building so that it can only accommodate 300 students - what an amazing lack of foresight and planning for this entire project. And let's not forget that even though the USM-H is going to need more space, they just signed a lease with the WCPSS so that the 300 students from the BISFTA can attend classes at the USM-H center all for the low sum of $5,000 per year. So the USM-H is going to rent out major classroom space for about $500 per month while they will also soon be asking for millions more for more classroom space. Makes sense, doesn't it?

Bottom line is that the USM-H, like other facilities, was located downtown for one reason only. This reason was not the benefit of the students that would go there. Anyone with any kind of objective mind would have to agree that the HCC site would have provided a much better overall college experience for many more students. No, the sole reason for putting it downtown was to aid in the redevelopment of the downtown at the expense of the college experience of the students (and the taxpayer dollars). Now its inefficiencies are being made aware to outsiders who have begun to question the funding fairness. It is not out of the woods yet in terms of getting the funding needed to operate, and it will most likely become a budget target again next year.

So now it is time for the city to get out of its seat and start delivering on the private development necessary to make the downtown come alive again. We shouldn't have to continue sacrificing educational opportunities and tax dollars trying to fit round pegs into square holes downtown. If the city can't start delivering soon and begin attracting large businesses downtown, it'll be time to cut back on the constant stream of public development that is going on down there.

Great post Drevin.

I like that one little entrance.