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Now it is up to 17 officers fired. Any insight or comments?

I love how the union says that all 17 were "robbed". I guess they have proof that the charges on all 17 are bogus.

Criminals or not, whether they "deserved" it or not, excessive force by cops/COs is horrible. They need to be able to rise above the urge to beat the piss out of the bad guy in excess of what is lawful or they need to find new profession.

I believe some of the fired officers were actually supervisors (did I read a Lt., maybe?), so that would indicate, IMO, they likely made some effort to lie or cover up the actions of subordinates. That's strictly my opinion.

Beat downs and stuff aside, I hate to think what the corrections guys are going through now. The inmates have taken over the asylum.

Next time a CO tries to control an inmate, all hell's going to break loose. The CO's are going to be hesitant to use any kind of force and the inmates are going to take advantage of it.

Plus, if they were short staffed before, think what it's like now. It's gotta be damn dangerous to be a CO right now.

You're right. Certainly not a job I'd want.

What is considered "excessive force" in prisons these days? Was it a Rodney King beatdown, or was the use of force warranted? For example, if an inmate assaulted me, I would definitely defend myself enough so that I could restrain him. Would I be fired if I beat up an inmate that assaulted me? What if I broke his arm during the fight? If I'm defending myself, I should like to think that my job wouldn't be at risk. Beating on a helpless individual is an entirely different story.

Mayor B has experience here, hope he chimes in.

You answered your own question.



When it crosses over into a punitive beating and more than necessary to do your job, it's wrong.

The interesting part to me is the number of COs getting fired because of this. Makes you wonder what the heck happened.

Yeah, my question is, basically, how much physical force are guards actually allowed to use? As much is needed to restrain them or is there a certain point where physical contact crosses the line, no matter how out of control the inmate is?

There's the rub. And to make matters even more difficult, uses of force are almost always judged by others using perfect 20/20 hindsight.

Google up "use of force continuum" for an explanation on law enforcement guidlines for using force.

My understanding is an inmate attacked a CO, beat him pretty badly before help could arrive.

The inmate was restrained and eventually put in his cell. Then each shift "allegedly" let the inmate know that was not the proper thing to do, to a CO. The supervisors were bounced because they knew about it and did nothing. I understand it has gone as high as Captain, but this is all rumor and not confirmed; but comes from inside the facility.

Ugh. That would explain the 17 fired.

Wow, just like in the movies!

What a mess.

The husband of one of my dearest friends works there as some type of "supervisor" over the guards (sorry, don't really know the terminology for these positions), I'll email/call her and see what the scoop is from her end.

Most of you know that my brother WAS a guest of that facility, he's been transferred to WV to finish his sentence (3 state crime spree - what a jerk), and at every single visitation he's mentioned how decent the guards have been to him. Although it's just speculation at this point, I can imagine how poorly the guards would/could treat an inmate who hasn't been exactly a model prisoner, or one who has been violent/disrespectful towards the guards.

I second Sman - not a job I'd want either.

This guy killed a detective. Was excessive forced used when he was apprehended? Hell yeah it was, but the guy got what was coming to him. We all know that law enforcement officers share a tight bond with each other so I don't blame them. I assume that CO's have a similar bond as well... they've got each other's back.

So, meh. The inmate probably got what he deserved, even though it was the wrong reaction (by the books) from the CO's. I would be looking for some retribution if one of my buddies got served a beatdown from a convicted criminal, too.

On the other hand, CO's know the hazards of the job and they need to be able to control themselves so I can understand the punishment.

It's human nature. I would say that's how most people, myself included, would want to react. You just can't.

If they crossed the line far enough to get fired, I would hope they will also be prosecuted. It's an ugly violent job sometimes, no doubt, but IMO there's no excuse in allowing it to change you into something no better than the criminals you are guarding.

I talk to my former co-workers there all the time. Its bad inside. This will set the whole system up for a takeover inside the likes of which Md. has never seen. We will be facing a big locked-up facility with an untold number of hostages and no-one but the Nat. Guard avail. to take it back. They lost MCI to the inmates in 1991 and were lucky to get it back like they did only because they had the very caliber of officers to do it like the ones they just fired. Their "open hires" "come one come all" hiring practices have undermined the whole system. There is no one to have your back anymore. The general public has no idea what the day to day is like. One vrs. one hundred has new meaning. God bless the CO's inside and be careful. The State has just castrated themselves.

Let's just hope the State hasn't set up the murder of any CO's.

and what are they supposed to do tell the guards they can do anything? I am for law and order but they crossed the line and now they are paying. They wanted a liberal in as Governor and they got it. They wanted a hardass towards prisoners rights they should have kept the Republican everyone knows what heartless jerks we are.

I basically heard what Yoss reported. I heard some slight variations, whether accurate I can not know. But I will share what these nurses reported. They were not there on that day but have been at the correctional center since then. Take it with a grain of salt, who knows??????????? Very sad, especially for those not involved, who have to still work in the correctional center. Facing the daily attitude of the inmates.

I work with nurses, some who do part time work at the correctional center. First, they totally understand the dynamics, are dedicated to the correctional officers and recognize that prisoners have nothing to loose. They are aware some inmates have no fear as they realize not much can happen to them re: consequences for behavior. Setting up a frustrating dynamic for staff.

The nurses I spoke with said that the guard was hit in the face by an inmate, they had heard it was a significant altercation but the injury was not severe. The CO would be ok. He was also ok that the inmate would be sanctioned and appropriate follow up would occur. Not a beat down but appropriate follow up. He did not request officers coming in on the next shift to do a beat down.

The nurses I spoke with said the aggressor against the guard was young. He wanted to be reassigned due to threats against him from more aggressive inmates. After having his request denied a couple of times, he took matters into his own hands. In his twisted/dead wrong logic, he decided to hit the CO to get bounced from the unit. Escaping this supposedly aggressive clique that was evidently harassing him. Stupid on the inmates part. But that is what the nurses heard. Their take was that the young inmate who wanted to be reassigned, was being targeted by some rougher inmates. Evidently, he reasoned he could be referred out if he aggressed. He hit one guard in the face. Action was taken by the administration, and the injured guard was ok with the proposed plan of action/consequences.

The nurses heard that guards on the next shift, some higher up, discussed retribution. The nurses said the inmate had multiple bones broken in his face. Anyway, that is what theses nurses said is the buzz. Whether it is accurate, who knows.

I feel for all involved, I can not imagine the wives finding out their husbands, some near retirement, will loose their salary, insurance and retirement benefits. What a tragedy for those families. Getting caught up in that group mentality and frustration and making a serious error. Now, some face the possibility of loosing one's job, insurance and pension, after all those years of hard and admirable work. OMG, sad it happened.

If I hear half right, I can see where some need to be held accountable. The old adage of having to rise above it if your in a law enforcement role is hard for those in the trenches. But I see the rub. I still have empathy for the staff involved. I feel for their families.............Like Yoss, this is all rumor so far, but what I heard from nursing staff.

I have moved the previous post to a new thread.

I think this matter of MRSA should have gotton it's own thread. It is truly a different issue than the CO's who were fired over using excessive force. MRSA is relatively new, and took many of the more naive members of the medical community by surprise. It has not been around as long as TB, which is also often ignored even though is is still a threat, especially in places where humans live in close quarters. That infection could have come from any one of the individuals involved.......from any of the prisoners to any of the CO's or visitors. No one should try to cover it up, but before we start pointing fingers, I think there should be a protocal in place concerning communicable health problems and I think the importance of following it should be dwelt upon in prisons and hospitals much more than it is now.

Yeah, MR. Mayor -- MRSA is unrelated, but no comment on the topic of the thread?

Not yet

There is plenty that the general public has no idea of, when it comes to these prisons, and the daily goings-on, inside! What these Correctional Officers go through, and deal with on a daily basis, is something most people wouldn't or couldn't do. It's like a friend said, they do the job that nobody wants, the job that nobody appreciates, the job that everyone takes for granted! In this job, you constantly deal with society's cast-offs and misfits, the ones who cannot function within the rules and regulations of society! You deal with verbal abuse, disrespect, threats, taunting, sometimes assaults, unknown disease hazards, safety hazards, ongoing gang violence, inmates arming themselves with home-made weapons, for eight-plus hours a day, every day, every week, etc., etc., etc. You have watched how older, senior, more experienced staff, has been pushed out the door, over the past several years, including supervisors, and replaced by raw, inexperienced staff, and the vacancies never being completely filled. You lose your time off, by being forced to work overtime on your days off, often, then it slows down, it restarts. You deal with the "deaf ear" from Administrators and Headquarters Staff, as well as the media regarding concerns over your safety, en light of out of control gang and violence issues. On the issue of the recent activity of the mass firings, and two of these officers being reinstated, it is obvious, the Administrators have gone overboard with their actions, but they don't get held accountable for their actions! As far as what exactly happened with this incident, I was not there, and can only speculate, based on hearsay, just like others. If some did go too far, they should be dealt with accordingly, but by the same token, when inmates do so, they should be dealt with accordingly, and rarely are! As far as the others are concerned, I think the appropriate Administrators should be held accountable, for their inappropriate actions, and disciplined accordingly, including termination (without drawing their respective retirement, if eligible). The general public has no idea, how much goes on, in the Division of Corrections, whereas staff are constantly subjected, either directly or indirectly, by Administrative "Decisions", whether right or wrong! Yet, only lower staff are held accountable for their actions, rarely (over many years) has any Administrative personnel been held accountable for their inappropriate actions!
With all that has happened, in the past couple of years, in Corrections, the numerous assaults on staff (which most of the time, the public doesn't hear about), two officers murdered, the changes directed at staff by Headquarters' "Decisions", the threat of making them work twelve-hour shifts, the constant losses of good staff, and never-ending vacancies, increases in costs of everything while losing raises, the officers being jumped at RCI, officers being assaulted at other institutions, the Officer hospitalized with MRSA (on top of the way, the issues surrounding this spreading, highly-contagious disease has been kept covered up by Admin. personnel, repeatedly for a few years, jeopardizing staff safety), the ever-increasing crap they have to put up with from disrespectful convicted inmates, officers having urine/feces concoctions thrown on them, officers being spit on, officers being followed and run off the road by obvious gang members on their way home from work, etc., etc., etc.!! I can see how easily someone could have snapped, there's alot to deal with all of the time, and actually, more and more, all the time!! Let me ask you this, if you were constantly putting up with a bunch of punks messing with your home/property, messing with your vehicles, messing with the safety of your family, taunting you, ongoing for quite some time, and every time you tried to handle it the right way, there was little that could be done, due to the "circumstances", how long would it be until you "snapped" and took matters into your own hands, when the opportunity presented itself??? Not saying it's right or wrong, but think about it!!!
Like I said, most of the public cannot begin to imagine, what it is like to be inside one of these prisons on a daily basis. Although it has been years since he has been there, and it has changed plenty, and gotten much worse, yes Mayor Bob was one of these folks, and can attest to a lot of the above.
And, no Coma, it is nothing like the movies!!

Good points all, Slim. However, I am left to assume that because conditions are what they are, Officers don't get fired for minor infractions. Indeed I do assume that a lot of bad stuff happens inside all of the time. So for someone, or several someones to get fired tells me they really really crossed the line in a big way. If whatever these guys did was enough to actually get them fired, I assume it must have been pretty bad, in which case as I said it should have been bad enough that they should probably be prosecuted, not just fired.

I respect those who want to reserve judgement until they learn all of the facts, but to me it is enough to know that it was bad enough that they were fired, and not just one or two of them. For so many to have lost their jobs, I can't help believing that it must have been very bad.

P.S. - The latest news is that 2 of them have now got their jobs back after investigation exonerated them.

I would imagine that a majority of the Correctional Officers that were fired has family that rely on the income and benefits the officer received and consequently his or her family also suffers the hardship financially as well as emotionally as a result of the CO being fired. My thoughts and prayers go out to them.

Of course family suffers when an income is lost. But if it was for-cause firing the blame is on the wrong-doer. The union said they "were robbed" of their income. Typical union crap. As much as I have wanted to many times in the last 25 years, I have not, and cannot, slap, kick, or punch my boss or any of my co-workers, suppliers, or customers. And some of 'em deserved it.

I can imagine it is rough for the COs that were let go. There is pain for the families from Dad losing his job, pension, and health insurance. Then having to explain to your kids that it was because you did a beat down, its rough to have to tell your young child. Different from the plant closing or a pink slip. Can not imagine the emotional pain.....................When I lived in Montgomery County I imagined slapping someone, yeah, I know I can not walk in a CO's shoes, I know I can not. The reality is that most work places have guidelines and policies prohibiting physical harm by caregivers/correctional staff. Many care givers in health care facilities and State Institutions face dismissal if abuse is proven against patients. Hospital and Nursing Home workers are fired when abuse is proven.................I want to believe that some COs will be cleared after the investigation, I hope. But I also can not accept that a beat down can migrate into common policy. Where would we end up?

I am not by any means condoning what the CO's did or didn't do obviously they violated polices that warranted them to be fired - I was referring to wives and children who are dependent on that income - the CO had total disregard for his or her family when they made a choice to do what they did. That was the only point i was making.

Is it just me, or do the rest of you feel like there is alot not being said in this matter? Who was injured and how badly? And what exactly were the circumstances?

If it never goes to criminal charges, it'll likely be treated as a "personnel matter" and they may never release a statement of all the circumstances. We'll have to rely on word of mouth.

It doesn't matter how bad the guy was injured, if Yoss' version is even close to correct and a whole shift took turns working out on some prisoner for a revenge beating, there aren't many migatiting circumstances that I could think of that would make the situation any better for the involved COs.

heres some fresh word of mouth. The inmate was moved from "down the road" to hagerstown because he was a plant. He is tight with the Gov. . He intentionally sets himself up to get a beatdown and takes names. Does what he has to do to get what the admins. want. Thats from the inside. Could just be CO paranoia.....but its what they are hearing.

The Governor planted someone in the prisons with the mission of getting himself beat up? Yeah....sounds paranoid to me

Someone's been watching way too much tv. (not you heyceeo).

This sounds like a lot of paranoid crap in my opinion.

So I guess the guv's office faked his committment papers as well as his criminal history and DOC history.

Yeah, especially if the severity of the initial incident was a black eye.

The governor trusted a Pagon motor cycle gang member? I don`t think so.

For a naive question, why would the governer be that close to someone who would or could end up in prison in the first place?

Because he's a Democrat, of course.

Just like Obama and that criminal who was pulling that real estate scam or whatever it was.

Uh....ok. What about that criminal who was involved in Watergate and told the nation that he was "not a crook"? I don't think he was a democrat. What would have been the underlying cause of his association with the criminal element?

Something I found out about the beating was they waited 8 hrs. before they beat the inmate for attacting the guard.
They wasn`t very smart in doing that.

No he was just acting like one.

Everyone knows that the Democrats are the party favored by 4 out of 5 convicted felons. The other 1 being a Libertarian of course. (I can't believe you're seriously trying to debate that point.)

No; I am not seriously trying to debate that point, since anyone with an education and common sense should be able to see that one's choice of political party and one's vote generally have nothing to do with the choices involved in the commission of a felony.

Come on B, a crime is a crime, democrat or republican, from vagrant to millionaire, whether it is dupping the public trust of millions or stealing five bucks from a friend.

Again, this goes back to my statement in other threads, we're simply just not yanking the lever enough.

That being said, as you can imagine I have obviosuly heard things from the rumor mill and if they are anywhere close, I would speculat4 that as B has, the jobs will not be returned and the end result would most likely be criminal charges, litigation, and eventually monetary settlement...just my two cents though (disclaimer to follow) none of which is based on first hand knowledge of the issue or of those involved.

I cannot believe any of you were dumb enough to fall for that and try to debate me on it. 4 out of 5 convicted felons Come on that was a joke.

It has a very tiny kernel of truth to it of course but if you think I was serious you need to get your head examined.

Back in '04 I do recall there was something the Dems were trying to do I think supporting voting rights for felons as a matter of fact. That's the kernel of truth to it, but cheez louise I wasn't being serious - can't you people even tell when I am joking around?

No.....................................

Oh yes!

Check out Hillary's "Count Every Vote Act". It includes a provision demanding that felons be granted the right to vote. The Democrats came out with it around the same time as news stories that revealed that convicted felons do in fact tend to vote heavily in favor of Democrats.

The study that came out actually says they vote about 85% for Democrats, so in fact they are the party favored by MORE THAN 4 out of 5 convicted felons.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/5/3/92921.shtml

So while I was mostly trying to joke around, on another level, I was actually just re-stating established facts.

This would be a good idea for Dems to go after. I mean after all this would give about 2 million more votes to the dems. Since prisoners have a lot of time on their hands I would bet that the voter turnout would be in the 90% level. And most likely when these folks were on the outside they did not vote. I would love to see a Pres. Debate out at MCI. Hell if they do this in Maryland the Republicans might as well hang it up. Just in Washington County, there goes the Republican run County Commissioners.

If you think there is value to complaining about possibly giving felons the right to vote, write your representative. I really think getting rid of the electoral college would be more productive, and we would have had a Democrat in office after the 2000 election and after the 2004 election if the people had actually gotton who they voted for.

I am a republican so truthfully I am not for allowing felons to vote, if it were up to me most of them would be dead. However, if I were a Dem i would be arguing racism, and treatment of the lower socioeconomic folks. I mean isn't that always the argument anyway.

I guess it bears repeating: One's choice of political party or one's choice of political candidate in an election has nothing whatsoever to do with one's criminal choices. What about all the people who ELECTED Gore in 2000 and ELECTED Kerry in 2004? Yes.....they WON, CH. The PEOPLE, the VOTORS, most of whom are NOT felons, did not get who they ELECTED. The different voting blocs we have do not appear to matter anymore, if they ever truly did. If felons get the vote and vote as a bloc, I guess some of the advertising will have to take them into account. That remains to be seen, though.