What on earth happened to the thread about the raid on that polygamist group? I looked all over and could not find it. I saw and interesting update, now that reporters have had a chance to interview lots of the people from that FLDC ranch in Texas. It seems maybe they're not all as wacked out as the authorities would like us to believe.

Here is one reporters recent views that I found quite interesting: http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/20.../23/935617.aspx

I think it's worth reading. In summary, he says:

"Much of the above sharply contrasts with the picture of alleged physical and sexual abuse painted by state investigators. The courts will ultimately decide which version of the truth is closer to reality. I can’t say whether what ranch residents tell me is true or not, but I thought you’d be interested in what they said."

For the record (I love that phrase) the mods/admins didn't delete it. I haven't checked, but if it was deleted, it was obviously done by the topic starter. And for the record again, there's a whole lot of deleting going on in here by our members.

Sorry for the hijack....

No problem, it happens. I just wanted someone to point me to it in case I just wasn't looking in the right place, because I didn't want to start a new thread if the old one was still out there somewhere.

While I err on the side of children and being overly cautious, in todays 24/7 cable news and talk radio, the truth gets distorted. In general terms many stories get rerun before the basic investigation starts. But then again, it is human nature to jump in before the investigation finishes. The cable outlets and talk radio run with that.

At least in the last five years it seems that media is nonstop. So, they keep playing the same tape and we get over saturated on certain topics. Usually, the cable news gets stuck in one gear, and they repeat the same angle. And then run the same pictures. Remember the VA TECH coverage.

................Ask Idiot, doesn't he question the coverage of Obama?
OMG, we need to check today's political threads, the PA election is over.

I guess raiding a whole community and snatching over 400 kids can seem like we are erring in favor of the children, but those were emergency measures that were taken, and I cannot see the emergency. A small child or toddler who has been sexually molested does not escape from it physically unscathed. We can usually tell if that has happened. Unless that, or some other life threathening abuse was going on, they should have started with other measures first. Failing to educate one's children or send one's children to school is against the law and would have to be corrected, also failing to obtain birth certificates; but............overwhelming all the shelters and overwhelming all the available foster care while at same time stripping parents of due process when there wasn't an emergency??? And how easy is it going to be for these children to maintain an attitude of respect for their parents? What about the trauma of being separated from parents and siblings? Wouldn't it have been easier and better for everyone to just require that all the children be enrolled in school immediately, and that birth certificates be obtained for each child who didn't have one? Wouldn't it have also been easier to just arrest whoever was abusing the children who were abused and lock that person up? Then, of course, if these things were not done, more actions could be taken, but this really looks like harassment to yours truly. Geesh......I have seen children who are actually being beaten left with abusers. Why are children who are not being abused taken away?

I don't know about the end result for this Texas saga.
I am too busy holding or consoling children who are severely burned or left alone for five days w/ cheerios. YES, I am a very evil social worker, pure evil. I can be saved though, i do not work for DSS or CPS.

Agree: a little overkilll in Texas, partly due to the media and also to the strained relationship between govt and clandestine groups. Both could do better at dialoging. But I understand the fear of govt. Look at Ruby Ridge and Wakco. Will not comment on the right or wrong of the FLDC, have not paid close attention. I have little hard information on the story. Only what is in the media. And that is not the whole story.............Agree: Overkill on this one I suspect.

Won't stop me from advocating for kids and if in danger removing them from Mom and Dad's home. I add that is a last result, with dialog many situations are clarified and if needed remediated. But some have had bad interactions by some insensitive case workers, and it casts a bad light on the profession. I rarely have to remove a child, we dialog, get to know each other, and work together. I am totally in a different world from the FLDC setting.

I enjoy the evil or incompetent label though. So enjoy the generalities. I am guilty of that pleasure too.

As a social worker most are wonderful when we meet, some are surprised due to what they hear.
Wow, you are a real caring person and not an idiot, is the usual reaction from the jaded. It is all good, no prob.

I think that's often the problem with social services agencies: they tend to either overreact or underreact. They rarely seem to do the right thing.

As for forcing the kids into the public schools, that is illegal. Homeschooling is legal, private schools are legal. The government has no right to force parents to send their kids to the government schools for re-education/indoctrination.

In this case the information I have heard about the warrants sounds like the Social Services folks had unreasonable standards and were trying to twist certain things that are perfectly legal into allegations of abuse. Instead of trying to indict the entire group, they should have focused on finding the one abused person whom they had a report about, and expanded the investigation from there as needed once they interviewed the one victim they had heard from.

As near as I can tell, they still haven't found the one child for whom they were legitimately looking. Meanwhile yes they have done a great disservice to the rest of them and done real harm to many of those children, yanking them away from their families and putting them into foster care without adequate justfication, IMO. The courts should have a field day with this.

Hmmmmmmm, generalities: food for thought.

RE: this topic:
The FLDC saga is a quagmire, a royal mess. A train veering off track. Wish the news coverage was more helpful.

Well, CH, you must be in the minority among social workers in Maryland. I used to live there, and I have seen some terrible cases there. Just my younger sister, when her piece of crap mother got married after my Dad died......this new husband of hers did not like my half sister one bit. My sister was beaten, urinated on, starved, and before finding this piece of work to get married to, my stepmother would leave my sister alone for weeks on end! That was when she was only 7..........I had to move back to Maryland in order to take care of my sister. Would Social services intervene? NO! My brother and I were told that Mrs. stepmother had not broken any laws......................................... Truly amazing. My brother moved all the way back here from San Diego to try to help get custody of her, but social services was convinced that everything happening to my sister also happened in normal families. (the real reason Mrs. Stepmother wanted to keep Sis was the social security check)

Yes; BMIC............social services overstepped their bounderies in this case. You are right, no one can force anyone to send his/her child to public school, but it sounded as if the parents teaching may not have been qualified to do so. Different states have different requirements......that was all I meant, and if that was, indeed, the case, the quickest remedy would be to just enroll the children in public school until a qualified teacher or private school could be found. It would be win-win........the child's needs would be served, the parents would not have their rights completely stepped on, and the social workers would get a nice warm and fuzzy feeling from having "done something". (no offence, CH.......I just think these social workers should focus on children who get urinated on and beaten ..........but that's just MY opinion) The other truly serious prob is the lack of birth certificates; but that, too, can be remedied without stealing the children. I really never can truly get over the fact that after all this time and all this national pride, we still want to tell certain groups they cannot bring their children up in their own religions.

NEWS FLASH!

The "16 year old married to old man with one kid and one on the way" ended up being a mentally ill, 33-year old woman with a history of making FALSE sexual allegations.

Nevertheless, there is obviously a problem within this group and I'm happy that those problems are finally becoming public.

IMHO, it "may" have been smarter, cheaper and more humane to leave the kids at the ranch with their multiple moms and remove the men until some point in the future. Of course, "chaparones" or some such type person/group would have been needed to stay with the women and children as a precaution (against what, I don't really know).

I'm cool with their "chosen" lifestyle, EXCEPT for the sexual abuse charges. "Isolationism" doesn't seem such a bad idea to me, but then, that's just my personal opinion.

I find it all a bit "telling" when a group of people claim first to be building a " an outpost and retreat", then say it's to be a "hunting lodge", turn around and build, a temple, dormitories, a rock quarry, an orchard, and numerous other buildings. They are liars, plain and simple. So whatever they are telling the public , has to be considered a lie first and IMO they have to prove otherwise.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...2-2004Sep6.html
( this was clear back in 2004. so what else have they lied about?)


It's their hunting lodge?!!

more pics:http://web.sccn2.net/flds/01-25-06.htm

I find the interviews with the women very interesting. I have never seen so many women so docile. So child-like. There had to have been one with a personality. Wonder what happened to her.

As for the children not being with their mothers, my understanding was that the moms were given the choice to stay with their children, but they went back to the compound. Now what mother would leave her child with people whom she was taught were evil? Doesn't make sense to this mother who would've fought anyone or anything to stay with my children.
I also am intrigued by the standard and rehearsed answers to questions that these women give.

It would have been MUCH cheaper to leave the children at the ranch with their multiple moms. And they had chaperones......armoured vehicles! Because one never knows what an unarmed mother with 20 kiddies in her care might do! (come to think of it.....that's actually not funny........ )

I think there might have been a few cases of underaged girls marrying and I know there were probably enough cases of polygamy, but what about all the kids in the general population whose parents are not married to each other? And whose moms have multiple boyfriends? And whose dad's are sleazy? These kids are often neglected just by default because of their parents' lifestyles, but that deos not give us a reason to take the children away. It would flood our foster care resources if we did. These children were fed every day, they were clean, they had shelter, their diapers were changed, and most of them were not abused. I really think social services erred by not focusing on ACTUAL abuse cases and leaving the rest alone. Now there is a civil rights case just waiting to be fought.

Ya know...........someone once called social services on yours truly because my daughter, who was 5 at the time, got mad at me and bit me about forty times during an almost uncontrollable fit of rage. I had forty-some little, tiny black and blue bites on me. But the supervisor of CPS told the person to call back when the child was abused and to let the adult take care of herself! I KNOW that if I had been a white picket fence mom instead of someone getting divorced and I also know that if I had been protestant and not Pagan, that call never would have been made. The ironic thing is, my 5 yr old was angry because I took one of her barbies away for a day because she would not pick up her toys........I was looking for ways to discipline without spanking! But I needed to be reported...........................................

They changed it, Dragon.....now it is only the children under 4 who can have their moms. Not anyone over 4. Obviously, social services has a shortage of foster parents who feel like changing diapers........................

As for the lies; let me play devil's advocate here, because it WILL be played in court by all the lawyers involved who are any good. The buildings and structures on the properties could have had any number of functions over the years. The concern is now. But bringing up children in a hunting lodge is not against the law. Neither is lying. And I agree......allowing one's children to leave the nest undersocialized is a terrible thing to do, but it is not against the law. A judge in your wild and wonderful and open for business state right in Jefferson County actaully accused yours truly of undersocializing her children because of her aversion to people who abuse drugs and have criminal records.(yeah.....my refusal to allow my children to ride with drunk drivers whose liscenses are suspended and my refusal to allow my children to smoke pot are signs, in Jefferson County, that I am a bad mother!!) I did nothing against the law though........just protected my children from watching people get arrested en masse. So.......people get very political when they make child abuse allegations and the real losers are the children.

Also......when Christian groups get their freedoms taken away, whose freedoms will go next? I am not Mormon, but I cannot condone the way this raid was carried out.

I've been watching some coverage on this - interviews with both the men & women. Does anyone else find it a bit strange as to the lack of emotion any of these people have about their current situation? It's like their eyes are dead. I find it very strange - especially with the women whose children have been taken away. If I had my children taken away & I truly did nothing wrong to have this happen - I would think I would be an emotional basket case!

You've never opted to be stoic? Especially in front of TV camaras? I don't think we can judge them or tell how they really feel...........Sometimes, emotional reaction is a cultural thing, too.

Let me play devil's advocate once again........back when witches were drowned and burned at the stake, people really thought that if a witch sank and drowned, she must really be a witch. Also; there were people who really thought that my autistic stepson was not grieving when his mother died, but he WAS!!! He just happens to be more stoic than the rest of the population, and did not SHOW his grief. We really cannot tell how these mothers feel from 5 minute clips on TV.

Sorry SS but any woman who sits in front of anything and looks like she's been eating Valium and keeps repeating the same thing over and over and over does not equate stoic in my book.
Something is not right in their garden of eden. Believe me I get the leave us alone stuff. I don't want to be bothered by my goofy neighbors, hence the electric gate, but I don't think this is the first time anything has been reported about these folks. I don't care how they dress or what their hair beliefs are, something just is not "right" about these women and them leaving their children in the hands of outsiders. It just doesn't strike me as what a normal mom would do.

I would say the same about Planned Parenthood when they lie about the nature of the business when building new abortion clinics as has been documented. But of course that goes beyond the scope of this thread.



I see you didn't bother reading the article I linked to. As the reporter said, once they warmed up they spoke quite normally. I cannot say I would be the most coherent and normal-looking person myself if I had been subjected to all that those poor folks have been put through.

Lots isn't right, and their behavior isn't sterotypical of what a "normal" mom would do, and I also agree that their garden of eden needed weeding real bad, but taking the children away is an emergency measure, and there was no emergency requiring those actions. Also......giving the women the benefit of the doubt, if you had soldiers outside of your home in armoured vehicles, might you be too scared to react emotionally? Just a thought.........................once again....devil's advocate.......

Some of the women might really be on Valium, or other drugs. It happens.

True enough. My experience is limited but not average. Mine was a foster family for most of my pre-teen and teenaged years. We were even named Foster Family of the Year at one point and got a nice plaque and our pictures in the paper. I'm not sure that the problem is always with Social Services. I think much of the time their hands are tied. I'm pretty sure that the law often keeps them from acting when and how they should, and perhaps that can lead to overreaction sometimes when they find they actually CAN do something. I'm not really anti-social services. I just think that this case was a royal screw-up.

Jesus.



Edit: truth be told, I'm kinda jealous.

I agree. I saw an interview that Meredith Vieira was conducting with some of the women. She pointedly asked the woman if she was aware of any children marrying at the age of 13 or younger. This woman not only stumbled over her words and gave some answer that had absolutely NOTHING to do with the question, but she talked in a monotone eery voice.




Again, I agree. In My Opinion, these women are brainwashed into a life of submission. Did any of you notice that it's OK for the men to have multiple wives, but you don't hear of the women having multiple husbands? That wouldn't be right now would it?

Of course, there is nothing illegal about the way they live their lives (provided there's no sexual or physical abuse going on), but I personally find it to be very oppressive towards the women. On one hand, that is very sad, but the good thing is, these women are so brainwashed that they don't even realize it.

Marriage is such a joke these days. I think it's status should be knocked down a couple of pegs to suit it's reputation better.

Oooh, we two are one. We're forced to live in separate bodies but we're one soul. In two years you'll have squirted a couple babies and screwed a couple of honies and hate each other. How about you be you and I'll be me and together we'll be happy if we can just get along.



Pfft! Watch me get married next month or something

Hey......ya'll are right; these women are very brianwashed. So are the men. How many of you men out there feel like you truly want to deal with more than one wife?? Or is one woman enough? And in the mainstream population, where many people have many lovers, and NOT every married person is faithful, how often is this construed as a crime or a reason to take one's children away? If these women DON'T MIND the lifestyle and LIKE it, the only thing we can remind them is that polygamy is against the law. And then, eventually, they could easily revert to just having or being multiple sex partners in the same, unsanctioned way the rest of the population does. Yes......each one of them has a rude, and perhaps fun and exciting awakening when they all realize that they have rights, but that does not create an emergency for social services to handle.

How much "brainwashing" goes on in the "real world"? How often do we think the police are always right, just because they are the police? How often do we argue with IQ tests? How often do we think high a IQ score confers a brilliant career and a wonderful life? Do we argue with a wrong diagnosis from the doctor's office enough? What about national security? Have we, as a brainwashed nation, made some errors there? Think about it, folks!

My stepson's (the autistic one) school had my husband convinced that he was not entitled to an education just like everyone else is. They had him convinced that this boy is incapable of a lot of things, and that the boy could never make friends or participate in gym or music. I cited the laws regarding students with disabilities, and, low and behold, the boy has friends, plays the drums, plays soccer during gym, and can throw a ball. I will continue to teach him to swim this summer. Had I not deprogrammed my spouse from all the "brainwashing", this child might still be isolating with is legos every day. Brainwashing......................................it's everywhere.

I've been thru worse and I wasn't a stepford wife. I was quite animated....ask the cops and the PA

I'm not buying into the " all they have been put thru". Don't wash with me, and it still doesn't make sense as to why these bereft moms would leave their children in the clutches of outsiders.

And I read the peice. It didn't impress me any about their private lives. Seemed "edited" to me.
I don't think the whole story on either side has been completely told to the public. Alot gets left out because of possible litigation. So really this all a wait and see thing.

Dragonlady........what are you telling me? I thought you MUST be a stepford wife! ♫♪♫♪♫!!!!!!!!!!

That probably depends on which kind of wife you're talking about. The polygamist wife who tends to the children, cooking, laundry, etc. and keeps her mouth shut and does as she's told. Or the "modern" woman who has a mind of her own and would probably prefer her husband wasn't sleeping with another "sister" wife.





I'm confused by your response. You cite several examples of modern day brainwashing, yet also list an example of how you were not brainwashed into thinking your son is incapable of a normal education.

I agree with you that there are MANY people out there who grew up being taught one thing, never questioning it, and therefore continue to believe those same things that were taught to them throughout their life: religion, racism, hatred, love, etc. Some of them are good lessons, others not so much. However, I also believe that more than ever, people are questioning the government, law enforcement, doctors, etc.

How many times have people gone to get a second opinion after they were diagnosed by their doctor? I personally have done this (my doctor was an idiot) and was lucky that I did because I could've ended up in a seriously bad way.

If I didn't question my upbringing, I would be registered republican and attending church every Sunday (phew! close one!).

So as much as I agree that there are those out there who will lie down and accept what they are spoon fed their entire life, I think there are also those who have enough intellect and freedom to question what they're told.

And it's all the man's fault these women are "brain-washed" Why am I not surprised by your take on this?



Talk about a bait.

Ah yes, a typical Patton response: twisting of words followed by an eye roll.

Please point out where I blamed the men. I didn't place blame on anyone.

Tell me Patton, would your wife be OK with it if you added another "wife" to your home? Or is that too much of a feminist stance?

I was not brainwashed about my stepson. Hubby was.........perhaps I could clear up the confusion by stating that I am recently married and still discovering the myths everyone at the silly little school wish to believe about him.

I was referring to modern women............although it seems illogical to assume that brainwashed women never have PMS, suffer from mental illness, or have a bad day. I love my husband, but I don't know if I could stand two of them......................

It would all depend on how good looking Patton is..............................

Your question is irrelevant, as we are not morally bankrupt.

Yes, I understood and that was my point. You gave several examples of modern day brainwashing (which I took as you maybe defending it?), but then you also stated how you were not a victim of it and therefore, saved your son from a life of "special" treatment.

So you are saying that these people are morally bankrupt, yet my stance is somehow wrong?

You catch on quick.

And you make no sense.

No; not defending it at all. Just pointing out that it exists, and we are all occasionally guilty of double standards.

Agreed.

To you.

Then, oh wise one, why don't you explain to me how my stance is incorrect in your opinion instead of speaking in code. You offer your opinion yet don't elaborate on it. Why even bother if that's how you're going to "discuss" things?

Because we will not agree, allow me to elaborate.

PHISH - Liberal

Patton - Conservative

Does that clear it up?

ok. is there a darn test or something that a person can take to see if they are a liberal or conservative, or whatever? I have my own opinions about certain matters and i honestly don't know "what" I am.

You're an "American", and if more folks just remembered THAT description, this would be a stronger, more united United States.

I don't know how much weight I would put in these tests, but you can try some of the links below to see what they say. Feel free to post your results!

http://typology.people-press.org/typology/
http://franz.org/quiz.htm
http://www.gotoquiz.com/conservative_or_liberal
http://www.allthetests.com/quiz15/quizpu.p...739&katname

moderately liberal. You believe in governmental action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all but not at the expense of the rights of others and you're cautious of that. You believe its the duty of the state to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights.

and on another it said I was Disaffected? That I have trouble paying my bills? which is SO not true. We pay tham as soon as they come in and we're saving for retirement, and have an emergency fund...SO wrong. It says I don't pay attention to the news! wtf? So wrong on that one too....whatever.

This has been all so one-sided it's laughable. As if all of the feminazi's aren't brainwashed themselves!

This weekend it was so refreshing visiting with my sister, who is a homemaker by choice, as was our mother. Call her brainwashed and old-fashioned if you will, but she has a degree in educaton, and freely chose to be a homemaker full time. She manages her household and homeschooled all 4 of her boys. That not because her husband makes any great money. He was a Baptist Minister for many years and now works for a computer services firm and they do not have a lot of money by any stretch of the imagination. But it is what she wanted to do and the lifestyle she chooses to live, and it is radically different from what you see being portrayed on TV these days.

Hey.............nothing against homemakers and stay-at-home moms. I graduated from college as well, but am being a stay-at-home mom right now, too. Yet..........I hang out with Democrats , and with feminazis!

Part of that whole thing is in choosing the right area for that particular lifestyle, BMIC. It has been an intersting change for my kids to have me home and available to them, and it has benefitted them greatly. My husband's kids would not be able to get by without a stay-at-home mom, and as for the child who has aspergers.......finding a daycare that is even qualified to care for him would be almost impossible. But if I tried it in Maryland, Virginia, or even West Virginia, I would have to find childcare, because I would definately have to work.

How do our current career choices make this discussion one sided?

The news this morning was discussing how much strain this will put on the foster care system putting all of the children into foster care. The person in charge of the foster care said it wouldn't be too much strain because they recently got money due to some children dying in foster care the previous year.

About letting the children stay with their parents. If they abuse is only coming from the males you suggest to move them out and let the children stay with their parents. The parents aren't under arrest, they can't move the fathers. If there are allegations of abuse they can't move the children back in. So it seems to me that they have no choice other than foster care.

I don't think the police over reacted. I'd rather they investigate more claims that turn out to be false than to not investigate a serious claim that they might have missed. It doesn't matter who made the call, I'm happy they investigated, I believe they always should. The police can't assume it is a fake caller.

I chose to ignore the points that didn't have anything to do with the news.

Edit: By the way, thank you for posting the article, I enjoyed reading it. The menonites (spelling?) from here dress like that too and you don't hear people making a big deal about that. Oh no they drive black cars lets make fun of them! I love Martin's farm market, and the pa dutch place in longmeadow shopping center. I don't think they are strange at all

Another reason the children cannot be returned is that not all of them have birth certificates. And when parents give unclear answers when asked whose child is whose, paternity and maternity have to be established. That is one problem with the parents; and once the children have been removed, the judge naturally has the responsibity to return them to the CORRECT set of parents. I would not have taken the children away over this, but I could not give them back under these particular circumstances......it would be like giving the children to just anyone...............

I see. I was half wondering (but not really sitting down and thinking) about why they were doing all those paternity tests. I understood that because of the sister wives thing they were unsure whose child was whose especially since they (the parents and children) kept giving different names or something. But if they are going to just return the kids to the compound why does it matter whose kid is whose? Am I using the word whose right? It sounds funny/looks funny.

Thanks Sirius, makes you want to get up in the morning and help people. I have no time or interest to knock others in the helping field, especially if they are good at their job and have a passion. But go ahead. Heard it all before. The kids and senior citizens I help are my reward, I do not need other's praise. Just helping is good enough.
Guilty as charged:helping others, I am evil incarnate. Oooooo, i love it, old stereotypes and generalities. Heard it all before and I will hear it next week I am sure.


Back to the topic: Whackadoodle stories coming out, can not make head of tail of it. Everyone from the get go knew the foster care system would know be able to absorb the kids, nor would they make an appropriate resource for cloistered children. The entire process has been odd. I understood the rational for the paternity tests initially.

If they end up returning most of the kids to the same undefined families, who cares. There is no point or benefit of knowing paternity if its not an issue for the State or each family. Now it all changes if a clear reason surfaces.

If the parents had just turned over the birth certificates, this muddle about DNA could of been avoided. Wonder if it has something to do with investigating medicaid or welfare fraud. Some of the disabled kids get both benefits and it usually ties back to the parents (TWO), when determining eligibility or type of financial assistance. They seem to parent in a group, which would be hard to cross reference. Anyhoo, what a waste of time, expense and emotional dust ups, if in fact there was no justification. Curious if something materializes..............The Jury is still out.

Note: I did not say the govt or child services was a ok on this, I underscored plenty of questions in previous posts.
I referenced Ruby Ridge earlier as an example of distrust for some, when the govt comes knocking. As i said before, I like many, err on the side of children. Just waiting to see what the final review states before I draw a final opinion...........
Some comments crack me up, I enjoy. And also realize its a serious topic.
(End to my disclaimer )