The purpuse of this topic is to hopefully accomplish a few things. 1) Assess how broad the problem of bullying in the Washington County Public School System. 2) Discuss the manner in which some schools apply the zero-tolerance policy for fighting (even in self defense). 3) Get a general concensus on addressing bullying in schools.


A 7th grade student (john doe student) at one of the local schools and the students parent came to me a few weeks ago for advice after john doe student was suspended from school for being involved in a fight at school. To help put this situation in perspective, john doe student is ADHD, suffers from a mild form of Autism, and has an IEP (individual education program).

I have personally known john doe student for 2 years and by no means is this an aggressive child, quite the contrary. You see, john doe student was and continues to be the victim of bullying and after instances of being kicked, punched, spit on, called names, and even food thrown at him; john doe defended himself.

The school apparently has a blanket zero-tolerance policy for fighting where both the victim and assailant are both suspended from school. In my opinion this is no more reasonable as having a blanket zero-tolerance policy for rape. It just doesn't make good sense.

To make a long story short, I advised the student and his parent and then contacted the school principal the office of Superintendent Morgan. The principal wouldn't discuss the issue with me and Morgan's office has remained silent. Initially I was under the impression the school principal had appropriately dealt with the problem however when I found out john doe student was still being harassed and bullied at school I advised him to seek assistance from law enforcement as well as seeking advice from an attorney.

Additionally, I contacted the office State Department of Education Superintendent Grasmick and sought assistance there. Grasmick's office and I seem to be playing phone tag however they did seem genuinely interested in looking into the problem. However, in just a couple of days it seems that more and more of these bullying situations are coming to light where students are not feeling the school system is adequately addressing this problem. I need not mention other bullying instances that were not taken seriously by educational institutions resulting in mass loss of life (i.e. Columbine High School, Virgina Tech).

What I need to get a feel for from this forum is how broad of a problem is bullying in WC public schools, is the zero tolerance policy fair and if not what needs to change, and what are possible prevention measures that could be taken by the schools and/or community?

I have moved from many school districts, my children have attended private and public schools. Thankfully, they had a good experience wherever we lived. We only had one speed bump. And that was by one isolated twisted clique of kids. So, we are overall quite happy that we only had one incident of progressive bullying/intimidation.

Being in the schools as a volunteer I did see some kids who were not as lucky. It was not resolved as quickly as our situation. Bullies or children causing problems, come from a variety of backgrounds. Some from fractured families, some from more visibly intact families. Problematic children in our schools run the gambit. Bullies or trouble makers in the schools come in every size, shape, color, religious background, and economic status.

That movie "Mean Girls" comes to mind when I think back, just a little, not quite. My kids were normal looking in dress, not overly fashion conscious, and very laid back. But the dynamics rang a little familiar on the part of some cliques who like to poke at the meek and mild.

My children were relatively unscathed and did well in school. But we did have one incident worth mentioning. Perhaps I should PM you since it was in Washington County. I do not want to start a rant or receive flack. My information is only antedotal and not an attack on the school system. So, I do not want to cast stones when it was an isolated incident.

I was more dismayed with the adults in general. When I spoke to some parents and administrators on a one to one basis I was dismayed. The reaction from some in the community was "Kids will be kids". But when its your kid that does not cut it.

Happily, we are an educated and self contained family. We worked through it. All the kids were happy in the end.

I know it can be difficult for some families. Especially if you can not be super vigilant, some just can't be at the school every day or when the team decides they can meet with you. And then private school may be cost prohibited or not in line with someone's needs. We lived and breathed WCPS until it resolved to our liking. We had always been good volunteers. As I said, for the most part we were very happy w/ WCPS. But one sad moment does taint one's view.

communityhagerstown,

Thanks for sharing and I don't think your comments could or should be construed as casting stones or criticizing the overall experience in WCPS. However, I would hardly consider the incident you describe as being isolated considering I've heard almost the same identical or very similar story from several other parents.

There should never ever be anyone that exhibits an attitude of "kids will be kids" especially when there are reports of persistent harassment and bullying to the degree where a kid is basically begging for outside intervention to include getting the police involved.

What is also amazing to me is that a kid that has Autism, ADHD, and is on their own IEP; gets suspended for fighting when only defending himself. However, this is how the zero-tolerance against fighting policy is being applied. How is this a fair policy?

Because we have brought this upon ourselves.

Student A, a known bully, picks a fight with Student B, a known good kid. Student A is suspended. Student A's parents are furious and happen to have a lawyer in their back pocket, just for emergencies. Student A's parents and Lawyer, arrive at school offices threatening lawsuit. School shakes in their boots, relents and now anyone even looking like they might do something out of line, is out of there.

I am going to ask a question (playing Devils Advocate).

Since you JB, were sure to point out in your initial post that the child has "special needs", are we to believe that these children do not cause problems or start fights, or do some bullying? I'm sure the child you speak of is the angel you make him out to be, I am just asking for clarification purposes. Yes I have been around children with these conditions.

I'm not in favor of the zero-tolerance policy because, if enforced properly, it does not allow authorities to use discretion when an instance occurs. If the WCPSS isn't going to do anything, and bullying continues, I'd go to law enforcement too and file a complaint.

In the meantime, I'd teach that kid how to defend himself and tell him to not take sh*t from anyone. I had a problem with a junior when I was a freshman (getting bumped into lockers, getting the "shoulder" in hallways, etc). I avoided a fight for awhile, but once he actually instigated a fight, he received a righteous arse-kicking at my locker in front of his girlfriend. I never had a problem with anyone after that and I made a lot of friends. And, I didn't get suspended, either.

Point is, I don't think fighting in school to defend yourself is wrong. He certainly shouldn't just let other kids beat on him.

The zero tolerance policy can be a really tough thing in a case like this. I have a stepson with aspergers, and I know from dealing with him that a child like that can very easily be a target for bullies. But then again, I have personally witnessed ungrounded hostility toward others from him, as well. As a double whammy in this child's life, his own mother was so taken aback by him and his behaviors and needs that she did almost nothing to coach him socially, and by the time I came into his life, he literally had NO social skills. As a result, this child has almost no friends. And it isn't the fact that he has a mental illness; it's the lack of social skills. So.............if dynamics like these are playing a role in your situation, Jburrs, all parties involved may have needed a suspension.

Quite a few children with aspergers and other disorders on the autism spectrum are very low on empathy, which can make the average school principal feel quite justified in looking for ways to blame the bullying on the child with autism and cease all problem solving efforts after that. I am not saying that it's right........but I do understand the frustration. Also, school administrators have to worry about the parents of the autistic child and about the laws protecting him (and believe me, there are lots of laws protecting the mentally ill, but not many laws to protect the rest of the population when others get attacked by the mentally ill)........and yes....the whole thing can be very frustrating.

As written many zero tolerance policies are zero sense in the real world.

I have/had 2 kids in WCPS and have told both do not ever let someone beat on you w/o defending yourself. If it is something like a 1-punch thing you can let the teacher or admin try to take care of, fine, but do not take a beating out of fear of a no fighting rule. In such case I will defend my kid to the hilt - Dr. Morgan and above if needed, and they know that. They also know if they start a fight they will get in trouble at home over and above what the school does.

No self-respecting teacher or admin. would stand and take a beating in school w/o defending his/herself so we should not ask a child to do so either.

jb -- if there is no "rest of the story" I feel bad for the kid and parents.

Q - Did the kid/parents report prior incidents and get no help from the school?

Based on personal experience, don't expect any WCPS Principal to do anything but cover up his own negligence and that of his staff. As for the higher ups, only Dr. Morgan pays any attention, and even then not until you start talking lawsuits.

I don't know about bullying but I do know that fights are a pretty common thing in WCPS. To hear my daughter tell it school can be a scary place in Washington County. There's far too much violence. One might wish that they would take the time to help kids find better ways to resolve their differences, but I am guessing the kids just learn what their parents teach. Unfortunately my impression is that we've got a community where far too many seem to think that settling things with your fists is the way to go.

All good and valid points, but my child who did have mild Aspergers and a hearing impairmet presented as a meek, mild, creative, and compassionate young lady. Those were the words of teachers in Montgomery County. I do agree with sentiments expressed by Snoopy and Coma. Good points. We should love and respect all children, even those that may not be as verbal as your own.

In the end when IDT meetings and IPPs (Special Needs meetings jargon) did not work, my other child took advocacy into her own hands. She was not physical just verbalized how things were going to happen while my other child finished up her last year. She and the extra curricular club my kids enjoyed, monitored and provided the needed case managment that WCPS had declined to offer. So the kids basically rewrote the IPP and provided staffing to meet my disabled child's needs. They made the bullies stop. They used kid talk.

We also got the principle to reconfigure one classroom space so my child felt safer. She had her own area. Again, my child has never had any aggressuive behaviors. She also does not lack empathy. I mention all this so you can see how unjust it was for her to be a target or amusement to others. Her classroom space was adjusted for her safety from 3 or 4 gifted and talented kids who took the same class. Evidently, the teacher never noticed it going on, or so we were told. Yes, this occurred in one class. My child was perfectly happy the rest of the day, just in this one class from HECK. I guess those kids were bored and very clever. And no one called them on their behavior.

Can you imagine them now in society.

Just wanted to add, I appreciate all the views and takes on this topic. I am only recalling one incident in my child's school history, it was the only speed bump. So what do I know about the big picture? Thankfully, it was short lived and an isolated incident but very disturbing.

It was so weird, it had never happened before and we have lived in many places. Again, appreciate all your insights. I will not be responding on this topic. It was too painful recalling it today. I was so disappointed in some of the kids and more so with the adults. So, it would serve no purpose to revisit. She is out of WCPS and very happy and very SUCCESSFUL in college. That is what counts.

When I see those kids and their parents on the street, at the mall, or even at church, I just think, WOW..............

I was a bully in elementary school, I remember it being very fun. I did it so I didn't get picked on myself. Either pick on others or be picked on. It was more of the chase people around the playground bullying. In middle school I would talk smack to the poor, dirty, or stupid kids, then when they would try to beat me up I wouldn't fight them. It was fun to just run my mouth. I think it was all in fun for me though, no hitting or pushing, just verbal. I know what your going to say, verbal abuse hurts the kids too. Just sharing my experience. I think it is ok for students to fight in defense of to fight back if a bully is pushing them around, it usually makes the bully stop, but I'm not sure I agree with the zero tolerance. It's probably just easier for the administrators that way. Getting suspended won't hurt you much anyway. Jobs or colleges don't look at that kind of stuff, so no big deal.

I was the one taking up for the ones being picked on by the bullies. One good punch in the mouth and they left them alone
Needless to say, nobody picked on me except my older brothers.

I was the one taking up for the ones being picked on by the bullies. One good punch in the mouth or a book smacked upside of their heads and they left them alone
Needless to say, nobody picked on me except my older brothers.

I read it the first time. You didn`t have to post it twice.

I`ll bet you have big muscular arms. Can I touch them Dragon?


People who messed with me got a finger in the eye. Problem solved.

I don't know how that happened.
and NO you can not touch them!




and no damn picture of them either!

The kid with special needs is a good kid. He's fairly timid however may talk a little smack at times. Nonetheless, he's pretty harmless and doesn't deserve to be picked on especially when in the document he gave to the police suggest there are 7 main kids that do the bullying/harassing.

Coma, actually the reason why this kid is finally defending himself is because for the past 3 years he's been getting self-defense lessons drilled into his head at Allstar kickboxing and karate. Part of the student creed is to only use what you learn in class to defend yourself or someone else and when this kid finally defends himself, the school punishes him. They did finally put in his record at school that the suspension was in self-defense but had it not been for me getting involved and questioning what took place, nothing would have been done. I also found out since then that other parents have experienced the same thing. It's a pattern and if we look at some of the things that happen in other places, all to often bullying is not addressed until after some major event like the kid being bullied commits suicide or zoning out and coming to school and killing a bunch of people.

BMIC,

This is the same thing I'm hearing from my kids as well as other parents, some who are volunteers in the school and witness fights in the schools.

I want to point out one thing in this forum that the situation with the kid that had special needs was the extreme case that IMO illustrates poor policy!

In another instance a kid kept getting picked on until finally this kid had enough and started kicking some butt, 4 to be exact. His parents were called and told he was too aggressive and the school had no choice but to suspend him for fighting. That is until one of the parents informed the school she was an attorney and pointed out the state laws regarding liability on the schools part for not preventing repeat instances of her kid being bullied. She is actually talking about a class action suit against the board of education to get their attention on this issue.

That's when I came up with the bright idea of putting it out here in the HM forum and see what other community members had to say and what kind of ideas might come out of a forum discussion.

My gut feeling is telling me that the answer isn't just about addressing the flawed zero-tolerance policy but there needs to be more student awareness regarding bullying. Whether it's a matter of developing a (student bully watch program) or some other form of community intervention program it is going to take a lot of involvment from people who actually care to get involved before the next "Columbine or Va Tech" incident. (IMO)

Ding, Ding, you have just won buzz-word BINGO.



The opposite of what I was saying, but attorney involvement none the less.

We have choice here either the wild wild west in schools or a Concentration camp. Finding the middle ground? Good luck.

I'm afraid Patton has it right. I don't trust public school officials to ever get it right. They might occasionally do the right thing, but 9 times out of 10 no matter what they try to do about it they're going to wind up screwing it up. Figure that you get what you pay for, and school officals aren't paid to be the brightest bulbs.

Ya think Wash. Co. is scary? Any transplants from different areas would tell ya otherwise. I remember 2 girls moved into a class I was in about the same time. One from Pittsburgh and one from somewhere in Delaware. We got to talking and their differing opinions of how "wild" school was was remarkable. I dealt with the "bullying" thing in middle school. My girl was recieving lets say "unwanted attention", from several boys. Not nice fun attention either. I was able as a caring parent to attend some classes and walk the halls with her. (Love that freedom). It was just a way to show that she was not alone, had a dad that care. I engaged these guys in guy talk. If they had a sport shirt ask about the team, car shirt same thing. Familiar last name of one of my classmates?? Ask is so-and-so your daddy? Just normal talking. No scary stuff. It all pretty much stopped, they moved on to easier prey. The boy as the topic sounds like he just needed some allies. Be it caring classmates or a good adult figure to show some support. Throwing food?? Thats in the cafeteria. Have lunch with him some. Have the child identify the problem kids and deal straight up with them. Worked for me.....

BMIC, Does that mean you would advocate on behalf of the school system to raise taxes to pay school officials the kind of salaries which would attract the most competent personnel? Chief

Unfortunatley, it's not just WCPS. My kids are in the Waynesboro school system, wanna talk hillbilly justice?

My kids got bullied some, thank goodness it was limited.

Only one EXTREME example comes to mind, and it's actually kinda funny in the end.

Son gets picked on for a couple of days in a row. Father finally says "enough is enough". Mom contacts school. School makes all the warm, fuzzy sounds a parent needs to hear. Bully does NOT stop picking on son. Son has enough, pounds the poop out of Bully. Bully cries. School calls Father. School pissed because Son defended himself by decking Bully. Schools says son should have "run for help" instead of defending himself.

Father goes to school (this is where the giggles come in to play)

Father leans over Vice Principals desk and says "So, if I yank your ass out of that chair and start pounding on YOU, you're not gonna hit me back, you're just gonna run for help, hmmmmm".

Vice Principal calls Mother who goes to school to retreive Father from front school steps. Father has been kicked out of the school for "threatening the Vice Principal".

Needless to say, Son never had another problem with Bully. And now, Father lets Mother take care of his "light work".

Oh no we don't!!!! This is not about money. Let's not go there.

Jburrs -- you forgot to answer my question.

Chief -- for not being an admin you sure sound like one.

Would you do a better job at your current job, whatever that is, if they paid you 20% more?

I would be grateful for the extra money however I do my very best regardless of what pay I negotiate. I won't accept jobs where the client isn't willing to pay for the skills I bring to the table regardless of what excuse they use (been there done that and it never works).

I like your approach. Jimmy Smith one of the senior instructors at Allstar mentioned something about developing a volunteer bully prevention program that would be similar to what you are suggesting. I imagine if I showed up at John Doe Student's school and had lunch with him, the bullies would back off. You know what, I'm going to do just that and then see if I can find others who are willing to do the same in some of the other schools where problems exist.

Thanks heyceeo.

Jonathan

If I could be convinced that was all it would take, then sure I would. But I know better.

P.S. - Kids just need to do as I did back in 3rd grade: Bully was pushing me down and chasing me down the block every day walking home from school. Finally one day I stood up to him, hauled off and hit him upside the head with my (metal) lunchbox. Bully's father called my father, who then congratulated me on standing up for myself. Bully never said another word to me. All of this happened off of the school property, so it was none of the school's business and the school was never involved.

Jelsey:

Question: Are any of the bullies in question girls? It seems like if the bullies are male, if you stand up to them or hit them back, they stop. But girls sometimes can be a little nastier, and more persistent, as with the recent youtube videos.

Someone else brought up about the sexual harassment, I think that's an issue in any school/county.

JB -- the question I had directed to you way back on page 1 was:

Q - Did the kid/parents report prior incidents and get no help from the school?

The pay question was directed at Chief.

I apologize Snoopy. Some of the parents claim both they and their children have reported incidents to the school and received more patronizing and pacification rather than resolution. Since I have been involved I know that the one parent has spoken with the school principal and is planning on taking a day off from work to physically go to the school.

The one kid who eventually beat up his 4 bully friends and was labeled "aggressive" for using his black belt martial arts training to defend himself while at school, his parents had made their concerns known to school officials and when the bullying continued his father (also a black belt) told him he better defend himself.

Cool. Its a pack mentality. Seperate the percieved weakest and make them targets. Any child with a strong backing is not easy prey. You have to remember its all about just being there and being real. no intimidation or "bigger bully" stuff. Lots of kids out there have no real examples of "real adult" behavior. They eat up being treated like an adult, talked to like they matter, asked questions about stuff they care about and having someone listen to their response. Something may click in their head. Turn them into protectors even. Good luck.

So far, my one girl has been safe from the bullies, she's 16 and to hear her friends and twin brother tell it, she's "sweet to everyone at school".

She's the kind of girl that makes friends with the "downtrodden", she smiles at everybody, always has something nice to say and is generally adorable. She holds doors for others, is quick to comfort someone who isn't having their best day and, to my knowledge, isn't interested in participating in the "Mean Girl" phenomenon.

Actually, she's damn near perfect. She's a Junior Jelsey!

Truthfully - I think the hospital screwed up and gave me the wrong kid.

Excellent, peer support was our ticket. The concept is used nationally. In Wash Co it came from the kids, Thank God. A bunch of kids banded together. They seemed like Jelsy' daughter. Anyway, the cream rose to the top with no help from the adults around them. i applaud those kids and undersciore the significance of programming the "pack mentality" in that direction. It is easier than we think. And it shapes kids as they grow into contributing adults, a win win. You find these kids in drama club, football cliques (yes ther are some who are helpful and motivating), debate club, or any other little corner. Good kids hanging low ready to step up, given the venue.

communityhagerstown / heyceeo:

Do I detect two volunteers to assist? I need to go back through this thread and find out the one individual who mentioned that they had been a bully in school. I think he/she could be very helpful as well.

When I was in school, in the military, and even while bouncing at a few clubs I always was on the protector side of this discussion. Ran into the "pack" a few times in my life and it can be very unsettling if not down right scary.

Anyone else in this forum interested in being part of a support group as discussed in this thread?


Jonathan

Good luck with that. I'm sure WCPS will throw open the doors and welcome you in.

Jelsy,

You are so funny! If they ban you, we'll have to all picket and strike! Or something like that!


My boys are all tall and the first two are big guys. Or, at least they were in high school. Neither of them were bullies, but got in a few fights to defend some kids being picked on! I always find out after the fact.... usually a few years after! But, I was proud that they stepped in and stood up to the bully for someone else.

I don't think they ever bullied other kids. If they did, they knew they'd face my wrath!! (as if you all didn't already know that!) I wouldn't let them make fun of people either. Of course, I couldn't hear most of what they were saying and they certainly abused that. But, if I heard them making fun, they get a good lecture. Guess I haven't changed much.

That's exactly what I expect them to do. The key is how the matter is approached. The alternative is to have me and others sounding the trumpet with the State Department of Education which has already shown more interest than the WCBOE. Or they could simply deal with the parent/attorney that would just rather file a class action lawsuit against the BOE.

I'm sure you are right Patton that "WCPS will throw open the doors and welcome..." us in with open arms and a smile.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
AMEN< You go Patton

It's plain and simple, teach your kids to deal with bullies, the old-fashioned way!! Let the school try to suspend my kid for "putting a bully in their place". My kids have done so, including in the defense of others being bullied, and have never been suspended!!! Just like in the old days, bullies only push their luck, until it finally runs out!!! The same goes for grown-up bullies!!!

Noooo. Kids need to hustle and tustle, but us adults call 911!

At least I do. !

Heather,
That is the new way to handle things in todays sociaty. Don`t take up for yourself. Call a cop. LOL
Back when I went to school you fight. That is the problem with kids today. Mommy and Daddy will take up for you.
Good luck in the real wourld kid.

Plus, the adrenaline rush you experience in a fight (a real fight, not bullying some helpless kid) is pretty incredible!

Instead of bullying real life people kids should just play video games and beat up fictional characters.

Now that sounds like a real way to teach your kids about the real world. On a computer game.
That should help them when they are getting there azz kicked in real life. Just reach for the remote.

and don't forget the chips and other fattening things. Little obese brats.

I was referring to this:

http://www.amazon.com/Rockstar-Games-P2T2I...7442&sr=8-1

So was I

I've never played. I'd rather play the sims or something rpg-like.