While the most recent case was from WV I'm putting this here because it's of local concern and several recent cases have taken place in WashCo.  Fist off allow me to state I am not condoning any act of barbarism or cruelty by anyone nor do I wish to get into a discussion of individuals but rather what we as a community are willing to accept as standards.  In that vein WashCo. has an animal control agency that is not under the direct control or supervision of government.  As such, we the citizens do not have the level of authority over what standards that agency imposes as we otherwise would.  The Humane Society of Washington County is largely a pet-based organization.  I hope we can agree that the conditions we find "humane" for pets is not necessarily the same as we would for livestock or wild animals.  Further, as we struggle with "farm preservation" locally, how far are we willing to go in imposing animal standards on farmers?  How about wildlife and those who encounter wild animals (grouundhogs in the garden) or use the wildlife resources such as hunters and fishermen?  One comment in regard to the most recent incident in WV stated that non-professionals should never de-horn goats...  I personally find this absurd.  Farmers regularly engage in vetanary practices to include de-horning, tail docking, castrating, Imunizing, etc.  It is an ecconomic factor in a profession with an often narrow profit margin.  Sure they should learn how to do it first but "never" is a strong word.  When an animal dies whether because of a botched vetinary proceedure or anything else, the farmer loses money and he don't want to do that! Accidents and unforseen complications happen even in human medicine.  Then there is the HSWC selling the herd of cattle for about $350 a head.  The anonomous buyer being selected because he will keep the cows essentially as pets. These same cattle would have surely brought a higher price at Auction but then most would have likely ended up as burger.  The implications of this is considerable for the farmers of Washington County who are subject to this agency! Cows (and other livestock) are an investment, a financial asset.  Their return for the farmer is in the products they render - milk and meat.  If the agency responsible for policing farmers livestock practices views slaughter as unsuitable we're on a slippery slope indeed.  Not just beef cattle and hogs but milk cows past their productive years and hens who are too old to lay end up as meat as well.  It seems to me the HSWC has an agenda that is not compatable with the community standards.  Am I wrong or are we ready to call (livestock) farming a thing of the past?   Tofu anyone?

What was the most recent case about, do you have a link to a story?

I think I understand what you're saying. Farm animals shouldn't be treated as pets by the humane society but there are times someone may need to step in if the animals aren't being cared for properly, which would probably be more of a problem with small farmers.

You all don't have an Animal Control Officer(s)?

Heres a link for the most recent one here in WV,which by the way I pass the lane this happened on quite often when I take the back way home

http://www.journal-news.net/page/content.d...4.html?nav=5006


A 55-year-old Hedgesville woman has been charged Wednesday with four felony counts of animal cruelty and five counts of misdemeanor animal cruelty, according to records.

Debrah Honey Snider, of 75 Wolf Hollow Road, faces the felony complaints after five dead goats were found lying on a burn pile in a pasture on property she owns in Martinsburg, records show.

According to a criminal complaint filed by Deputy J.H. Jenkins with the Berkeley County Sheriff's Department, Snider said the goats died after she dehorned them. The four misdemeanor counts of animal cruelty involve three horses and a goat, according to Berkeley County Magistrate JoAnn Overington who set bond at $35,000 which Snider posted.

Overington ordered that Snider have no possesion of an animal.

"All animals on the property have been seized," said county Animal Control Officer Donna McMahan Wednesday night.

Because the investigation into the case is ongoing, McMahan declined to comment.

According to a criminal complaint, Officers T. Murphy and R. Twigg from Berkeley County Animal Control met with a complaintant on June 19 concerning the welfare of livestock at the end of Legado Drive in Martinsburg. The person advised the officers that there were five dead goats lying on a burn pile in the pasture. When the officers went into the pasture, they discovered the goats, which were all under a year old.

While on the property the officers also inspected a stallion, seven mares, 15 to 20 goats and two longhorn cows, many of which suffered from malnourishment and showed signs of neglect.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

In that situation it looks like the animals were closer to pets than livestock.

If they are under your care, it should be considered animal cruelty, even if you are just using them for meat. That's why they electrocute chickens now or whatever they do to them. Farmers wouldn't make much money off of meat from starving cows so they feed them, I don't ever see that as a problem. I see it as a problem when people have them as pets and can't take care of them so they die of starvation. It's not ok to starve any kind of animal if you are keeping it as a pet not matter if it is a groundhog, a cow, or a livestock, the type of animal has no bearing. You can't think that it's ok because hey the animal would have just been butchered somewhere else if I didn't take it as a pet. No you take it as a pet, your responsibility to keep it healthy.

Ever watch those animal cruelty shows on A&E or discovery?

OK, got some discussion going anyway. I'm not insinuating (read my orginal post) that actual "neglect" is acceptable. What I'm saying is that what may be perceived as mistreatment by "pet" animal standards does not necessarily constitute anything being wrong with some other animals. A dog with his ribs protruding (note I did NOT say "showing" as this is desirable in some sporting breeds) may be a sign of malnurishment. The same is not necessarily true of cattle!

Again, I hope this doesn't digress into a discussion of the specific incidents. What I'd like to see is an intelgent discussion on what the citizens of WashCo. feel is permissable standards for animals other than the typical pet types, basicly dogs and cats. If you have a pet cow, goat or pig named Arnold who you feed from the table and bath weekly, that's fine by me but it's not what I'm talking about - in regard to livestock or pets.

WVDragonlady, No we do not have "animal control officers" like WV. and most other jurisdictions What we have is an independent organization (humane society) who has a contract with the county to enforce animal regulations and is supposed to handle problem animals.

I'm not a farmer so I have no idea what goats are supposed to look like. I'm sure the vets know all about that though when they decide to investigate a case.

Here is MD general animal law.
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusmd10_601_622.htm#s606

Here is bovine law.
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovusbovine.htm

You also mentioned something about horn removing. I have no problem with that, it seems similar to de-clawing, ear clipping, or tail stubbing.

There are laws pertaining to how many ribs your goat can be showing. If you watch the show animal precinct you will see livestock that they consider animal cruelty. There is no discussion, there are laws.

I'm annoyed that you told me what you want US to discuss. I feel censored!

Are you saying that the Humane Society doesn't understand the difference between livestock and pets? If so do you have an example?

While you hope this doesn't digress into a discussion of the specific incidents, I think that we need specific incidents to decide if the cases are being handled properly or not.

I would hope the Humane Society understands the difference though.

I think cattle recently seized for malnutrition were sold to a person who would keep them as pets. Not sure, though, the price sold for vs. the going market price.

I whole heartedly disagree! Regardless of whether the animal is a household pet or a farm animal, allowing animals to suffer while in your care is totally unacceptable!




I find it absurd that someone who is skilled in the art of feeding and caring for an animal, thinks that makes them qualified to perform any kind of procedure or operation! That would be like me slicing open my cat and spaying her because obviously I am knowledgable in caring for her.

The woman from WV obviously has no business caring for any kind of animals, especially since in addition to the five dead goats found on her property, there were also many other animals that they found suffering from malnourishment and showed signs of neglect.

Wouldn't you be shocked to see dogs spending 20+ hours a day outside, regardless of weather, and part of every day with dozens of others in an area virtually covered by their own feces? Now, would you be shocked if it were dairy cows you saw?

I think this is the idea.

Of course different animals require different living conditions and/or environments. However, that's not the point I took away from Aldo's argument. From what I understand, Aldo is questioning the Humane Society's authority in policing farming practices. The humane society is not punishing farmers for slaughtering animals for profit. The woman in the cited article tried to perform a procedure on an animal (which she was not properly trained in doing) and as a result, the animals ended up in a burning heap on her property. In my opinion, there's a big difference between HUMANELY slaughtering animals for profit and botching your own home-based veterinary practices. These animals could have suffered before ending up on the burn pile. I think THAT is the point. I'm not sure if Aldo is concerned with the animals and whether or not they suffered, or if he/she is really concerned that the Humane Society is trying to infringe on his/her right to eat meat. If it's the latter, I am confident when I say that concern is unfounded.

Geez, talk about taking something out of context! I pose a discussion on if we shouldn't maybe have someone with SPECIFIC knowledge of SPECIFIC species and their respective care responsible for policing that venue and I'm accised of being some anti-vegan maniac...

I do confess to having a personal problem with HSWC being in chage of such cases. Since I've never personally dealt with such an incident, neither can I supply specific evidence but I do none the less question their training, expertise and motives when dealing with livestock or wildlife.

Since it continues to be a promenent part of this thread and you did not see it in headlines like the orginal accusations, it is my understanding that after a QUALIFIED VET examined the animals belonging to the woman in WV a number of charges have been dropped! So please, let's just leave THAT incident until more official information is available. And no, that is not an attempt to censor anyone. I'd just like to stay as facual as possible even though this is an obviously emotional issue regardless of which side you take.

The example comparing dogs left out in all weather, etc. to dairy cattle is exactly what I'm talking about. Some species actually prefer to be outdoors in what we'd consider extreme weather conditions, so I guess what I'm asking to a degree is whether we're assessing these cases based on the animal's standards or our own!

Tried to edit my own post but for some reason I'm not allowed to... Anyway, I wanted to add that so far I have never seen mention in any local news article reference to the skills or qualifications of the accused in such cases.  It may come as a surprise to those without a farm background or exposure but as I previously mentioned, many "veternary proceedures" are regularly performed by laymen.  As I also qualified, to do so requires (or should) adequate knowledge and training.  As far as we know in the recent case, maybe the woman DID have dehorning expertise.  We don't know!!!  Someone suggested I'd accept him spaying his own cat... Well, this may shock you but if you knew how and had the proper equipment I sure would accept it!  What's more, if your cat had some unexpected or unforseen reaction to the proceedure or medication used and died as a result, I wouldn't hold you responsible!!!  This precise scenario plays out many times everyday in veternary clinics and human hospitals everywhere folks.  Just because it happens in a barnyard doesn't automatically make it abuse.  At least not to me and millions of farm-types around the world.  If farming is to survive on the knife edge it exists on today we need to make sure the practices accepted (and yes, permitted by law) are not misconstrued by a policing agency with ulterior motives, if in fact they do have such as it seems to me.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

Now if you would give us some details we could move this thread along.

This makes no sense, how are you going to say not to talk about a specific case and keep mentioning it in every post. I'll talk about anything I want in this thread, you're not going to tell me not to. Maybe if you made it a little clearer exactly WHAT you want us to discuss then I'd say whatever you are waiting to hear from me.

I posted the animal laws by specific animal, what are we DISCUSSing exactly?

Oh geez Louise. You've been courting a certain argument.

Farmers are saints compared to factory farms. Let's all go kick a chicken so that Aldo feels better.

*Kick my mom's chickens and you'll find my foot up ya butt.