This article did have some interesting points & statistics... I am still on the side that you should be here legally... Period.

A Reason to let them Stay???

Paul Rodriguez said "FEMA is rebuilding New Orleans....Find Every Mexican Available".

Intersting Article, but I wonder how many of the legal immigrants are middle or upper class families/people?

It might slow things down a bit but we will survive.

I'm willing to take a chance. We could use a "slower" lifestyle anyhow.

I definitely agree with that! We DO need to "slow down" a bit... What happened to the days when eating out was a treat? Staying home and actually spending family time together was the norm? It would be nice if we got back a bit more to our kids having (and in some cases choosing) friends by their personalities & values instead of name brand clothing and gadgets aquired. I think that there are enough US Citizens in this country that would be willing to take some of those jobs left open by the illegal immigrants that could use the money to feed their families...

I think if all those jobs were to open up then we could almost clear out the welfare rosters. Also, there would be jobs for teens then. I like the idea.
And could the price of food really go up that much more than what the gas prices are driving it up to?
Now, before someone comes up with the " your ancestors were immigrants" shpeel . Yes! Mine was, 7 generations( 1600's) ago and they came here LEGALLY and registered and helped build this country.

A bit of a while back (several months I'm guessing) 60 Minutes did a report on the California produce farms. They were spotlighting the fields and the rotting produce lying in those fields for lack of anyone to pick them.

It seems that Dept of Homeland Security (Immigration/Border Protection) is already having a significant impact on the number of illegal immigrants coming into this country from Mexico. That reduction in "illegals" has in turn, created thousands of acres of unpicked and rotting produce.

Now, if we have so many unemployed low-skilled/under-skilled Americans so willing to work, why are they not replacing the immigrants? My guess is because they're lazy, un-willing to work at such menial labor that the immigrants were doing.

If we can't get Americans to do these jobs, then perhaps we need to look at changing the immigration laws.

If we can't get Americans to do these jobs, then perhaps we need to look at changing the immigration laws.

If we can't get Americans to do these jobs maybe we could kick them off welfare.

"Now, if we have so many unemployed low-skilled/under-skilled Americans so willing to work, why are they not replacing the immigrants? My guess is because they're lazy, un-willing to work at such menial labor that the immigrants were doing."

Ditto on the "lazy".

But then again, does the un and under employed KNOW about the rotting produce and multitude of unfilled, menial jobs? And if they do, how would they GET from, say, Hagersbush to Cali? If funds are low, travel funds are prolly not available.

I like the idea of prisoners working these fields, it's been done sucessfully (albeit not always humanely) before, we can do it again.

After all, we are AmeriCANs (God, how sappy THAT sounds).

That was kind of my point, but I was afraid of hijacking the thread.




That's where social welfare programs need to kick in. Get the people to the jobs and not expect the jobs to come to them. Lots of people have relocated to better their lives.

And the prisoners? Great idea. Instead of lolling around the prisons all day, get them out to the fields to do some hard labor. Maybe even pay them for it and/or reduce their sentences depending on how hard they work.

....and depending on their crime. This is a great idea and one that the City of Hagerstown and Washington County should be tapping into here. The new director for Correctional Services, Gary Maynard has spoken many times about having the prisoners out working in the community.

Good points... Yes, getting rid of all the ILLEGAL (key word, here) immirgants would open more jobs for WILLING US Citizens (and teenagers - thanks, WVD) and if our economy will be as bad as the article predicts, then yeah - you don't want the job - you don't get the welfare, either! Actually - a situation like this one might just help clear up a lot of our country's problems!

And, I, like Dragon don't want to here the ancesrty schpeel either. To my knowledge, all of our ancestors who came over to this country on whatever boat, from whichever direction did not baulk at having to say the Pledge in ENGLISH and follow the rules already established. They came here for the opportunity this country gave and actually APPRECIATED it...

Uh, pretty d@mn sappy!!!

Prison labor -- good. Jobs for able people on welfare - good. Jobs for kids and others now unemployed -- good. If all that doesn't work, increase the number of legal workers allowed to come here seasonally and/or permanently as needed.

The pledge? The pledge has only been around since the 1930's (will have to double check exact date) and has been changed at least twice. It was almost never used in schools until after WW2. My Dad's family has been here since 1619, and I doubt if any of them ever used the pledge at all, yet some of them have represented their states in Congress over the years. I guess if they said it, they would have said it in English, and would not have "balked", but what's the importance of it? I tell my kids that when there is "justice for all" in the United States, as the pledge states, it will make much more sense then.

Got to love your patriotism. Looks like you will be voting for Obama because you think like his wife.

That's great as long as you don't live in New Orleans.

With all due respect HagOpinion - your comment is just ignorant. Why would you vote for someone because you think like someone else?

And to question the patriotism of someone who refuses to LIE ('justice for all"...yeah, right) is just as apalling.

I just stay quiet when the "justice for all" speil is repeated ad nauseum, but I'm glad and PROUD to know that someone else has looked around and saw what a complete pile of horse manure that particular statement is.

I thought you were more enlightened than that, but perhaps you really DO believe that there is justice for all here in the US. I don't.

I don't think he was referring to a slower lifestyle. How would it change our lifestyle?

Yep. Sounds good to me.

I took it as - if we don't have any extra money since it's all consumed by gas just to go to & from work, maybe we will keep our azzez home a bit more instead of running here, running there, buying this, spending that... yadayadayada...

I am sorry I always looked at the pledge as a personal pledge and for a lack of better term a prayer or hope. Meaning that I (the one saying the pledge) will attempt to do MY part to make what the pledge states to be true.

and as for my comment being ignorant, why would you vote for someone because you think like someone else? You would be surprised how many people go in and vote alphabetically, randomly, ect... So why would it be ignorant to think that you would vote for someone because you have the same views as their wife. I am sure that Mr. Obamas views are not too far off of what is wife thinks, she is just a little more outspoken.

Well, if you look at it as what YOU pledge to do, then I guess you're right, it's a "personal pledge". I, and oodles of other kids were/are FORCED to recite the pledge in school, word for word, every single day and somewhere in high school (the rebellious years) it dawned on me that there ISN'T justice for everyone. I'll have to rethink my stand on this issue. If I do as you, and consider it a prayer or hope that there's justice for all, then I can probably, no, I CAN say the whole thing. I just never took it to be so "personal". But I STILL don't beleive that there IS justice for all here in the US.

Thanks for showing me another viewpoint.

See....I KNEW you were enlightened, guess that makes ME the ignorant one.

A-HA! You snuck more info in on me while I was typing.

I'm not gonna comment on the Obama wife-thinking thing. We're never gonna agree on that one, even if I look at it from your viewpoint.

I'm a FOO (Friend of Obama), just like I was a FOB (Friend of Bill), and we're a stubborn damn bunch.

Thanks for the insight, SS... I didn't know that tidbit of history about our pledge...

I looked it up & found the history very interesting... wikipedia

I completely understand your points about your issues with our pledge... And with so many things that are just plain wrong with our country right now, they are justifiable... But, I have to partly agree with Hago... When I say the pledge, I think of it as my pledge personally to do my part (not that I am anywhere near saint hood!) to make my country a greater place to live. I want to take pride in what is good, what is right & try to help change what is wrong... I am (still) proud to say that I am an American. I would hope that most of our citizens would be. IMO - it has nothing to do with my personal opinion of our current (or future) president or that I agree totally, or disagree totally with the way some of the things that could be done differently here... Considering what life I could have been dealt, I will take what is good, be thankful for it & take pride in what I am doing with my life here on earth. I am glad that when I stand, with my hand over my heart as I look at our nation's flag that I stand tall as I say the words of our pledge & will do what I can to make them true.

I have something to add, though I do so with a little trepidation. It's a little icky.

I deal with a contractor who has worked with illegal immigrants in the past, and he told me that there's a big cultural difference between typical American sanitation habits and those of the Mexican laborers. Not to be gross, but they rarely if ever wash their hands after using the bathroom. Also he told me of an issue where they usually throw their used toilet paper on the floor in the bathroom, rather than flush it, because in their experience in Mexico the toilets get clogged, so that's what you do there. I know, this sounds horribly un-PC, and it is icky. But it made me think, if this is an issue on construction sites, would it also be an issue where illegals are harvesting produce in the fields? I know that right now all the talk is about the salmonella outbreak, but there have been numerous E.Coli outbreaks in the past. I always assumed it was runoff of animal fertilizer from adjacent fields that would be contaminating the spinach or lettuce but now I feel less confident of that.

I did a little googling and found several articles which backed up what my friend told me. Apparently this is a health concern ... http://www.alipac.us/article1516.html Here's a quote from that link:



I had also never considered that illegals (regardless of country of origin) who get into our country do so without the health screened that a legal immigrant must go through, so there are other health risks from TB, Hepatitis, etc. I apologize for ruining anyone's appetite...but thought it was interesting to point out.

Didn't mean to sneak anything in on you. Please note that I never stated that I feel that everyone gets justice. No way to prove either way but if there were I will bet you that some people vote for Obama because of his wife. I also believe that some will not vote for him because of his wife. Many of the democratic thinkers have blamed Bill for ruining the chances for Hillary. I am not saying that I agree, but I do think that it is a factor.

I prolly woulda voted FOR Hil... I'd personally take back 8-10 years when Bill was our president over where we are now... I don't really care what he did with that cigar!

So, if there is injustice for even one, the pledge is not worth reciting?

Good luck not saying the pledge in school. Everyone will talk behind your back, the teacher will talk to you and tell you that you have to say it, you may even be called into the principals office, your friends and classmates will think you are weird. I say just say it. I got in trouble for not doing it, it was not worth losing my internship over, so those are my priorities. It's not going to kill me to go with the crowd on this one and just say it. I think many people may not agree with the pledge, but they aren't all blowing whistles and making a big fuss over it, I can already see where the replies are going to go on this one so I'll just stop.

What if we threw out all the illegal immigrants?....why they'd just come back!


Van Of Illegal Immigrants Stopped In WV Reported by: Diana Moon
Wednesday, Jul 9, 2008 @11:06am EST
BERKELEY COUNTY, WV - Ten illegal immigrants will be deported back to Mexico after they were discovered on Interstate 81.

A white van was slowing down traffic Tuesday afternoon at 45 miles an hour in a 70 miles per hour zone.

When a West Virginia state trooper stopped the van, the driver told him that he and all nine passengers in the van were illegal Mexican immigrants.

They were trying to go to New York.

The driver had three prior smuggling charges against him and had been deported twice from the United States.

The Immigration Customs Enforcement is now handling the situation.

It's never going to happen.

And everyone should be glad of that.


It's not that Americans won't do the jobs, the problem is they won't do the jobs for the current rate of pay.

Not only lack of health screening, Clevername, but simple immunity. If you go to Mexico and drink the water, you will get sick. If someone from Argentina moves to Maryland, they can expect to get sick a lot while their immune systems adjust. I moved, not nearly as far, and spent a whole year fighting off infection after infection because I am not immune to all the local germs. I am still very careful about it. It's a real concern. It's much safer and healthier to have one's food grown and processed locally, and handled by people who have lived in the community long enough to have the same immunities as the rest of the community.

What does that have to do with illegal immigration?

Actually, since there's more of them than there is unemployed if we kicked them all out we'd have to all work harder just to keep up.

x2

They're handling it alright.

Unfortunately, most people can't think out of the box enough to realize that.

My good man, are you channelling the poster formerly known as "Patton". From reading his posts I do believe he would've said the same thing. It is sad that America is run as a welfare state. It was never meant to be run in this manner.

Mr. Udmas,

What is that? Because the Amercian Government says "don't worry, well pay you to sit back until the "right" job comes along". How very sad.

Why is this still being brought up? I thought Americans would be on to the next disaster by now? What about all the folks flooded in the midwest? What about all the folks burnt out in California? Why are we not rushing out there to help them?

Ms. Jelsey,

I'm going to have to ask for some explanation, please.

Why do you not believe in "Justice for All"?

Have you been denied Justice?

I am certainly not ignorant enough to pick a fight with you, I am just asking for some insight. Thank you.

Cheers

PS, I ask the boards forgiveness for my multiple postings, as I am reading a rather involved topic at my own pace.

I'd bet everything I own that a big chunk of the rebuilding in both those cases will be done by illegal immigrants. It happens everywhere there is a natural disaster.

In Sept 2002 hurricane Isabel destroyed my pier and seawall. The local government gave me, and everyone else, one year to restore it as it was without having to apply for a new permit and comply with new regulations such as the length of the pier and material used for seawalls to name a couple. Not a problem, right? Of course everyone wanted a new pier right away and a new seawall even sooner in case we had another storm.

The problem was that there were over 600 piers and/or seawalls in just a five mile stretch of the river where I live and only two construction companies to do all the work. Neither one could do more than about 100 jobs in a year so it was going to take 3 years to do them all. There were very few "americans" who were willing to take jobs as dock builders for the going wage and most of those who were willing to were worthless. The argument to just raise the wages isn't right either. These people had just been through a disaster, some even losing their homes as well. Should society take advantage of them?

My problem wasn't as bad as some but it would've cost me a lot more money if I had to reapply. My old pier was 115 ft long and I had built a boat lift at the end of it which was not attached to it and which survived the hurricane. The new regulation wouldn't allow me to build a pier longer than 100 ft, so I'd have to also move the lift in closer which would cause another problem because the water wasn't deep enough there for my boat.

There were literally thousands of people in the Chesapeake Bay area with the same kinds of problems. Some counties were even worse. Thank God that illegal immigrants did a lot of the labor to rebuild. They did mine and I'd use them again in a heartbeat.

There isn't a "next" disaster. Disasters don't really take a break. This is an on-going problem in this country. Before the rebuilding is complete for one disaster there is another one. The problem is more complicated than just rounding them all up and sending them home.

It sounds as if you think that for a person to be denied justice is rare in this country. It actually happens all the time; mostly to women, children, people of color, and people who do not have the means to hire good attorneys when the need arises. I also have an autistic stepson who has experienced a few injustices over the course of his young life........mostly ignorant people who work at his school and think he does not deserve an education as much as all the other students. This country is a great place to live and be a citizen, but this country is not terribly evolved when it comes to dealing with ALL segments of the population.

Ms. Jelsey,

I'm going to have to ask for some explanation, please.

Why do you not believe in "Justice for All"?

Have you been denied Justice?

I am certainly not ignorant enough to pick a fight with you, I am just asking for some insight. Thank you.

Cheers

PS, I ask the boards forgiveness for my multiple postings, as I am reading a rather involved topic at my own pace.
[/quote]

Phil,

While I WISH for Justice for All, I have to echo what SS said regarding minorities/handicapped/etc. Let's not forget unaddressed instances of Police Brutality, Wall-To-Wall Counselling, Child Abuse, Domestic Abuse, etc. I am well aware that America is the MOST WONDERFUL PLACE IN THE WHOLE WORLD, and that as a whole, we're a pretty damn good bunch of folk, but there are instances where "Justice" is overlooked.

Typical (perhaps mythical) example - Mr. Jelsey & family on vacation, driving thru Podunk, Kentucky. Suddenly lights start flashing and Officer Badass pulls over minivan. "Son, we don't cotton to you city folk flying thru our little town like a bat out of hell". "But Sir, the speed limit is clearly posted at 35MPH and my cruise control is set at 33". "Don't give me no lip, you city slicker. The fine is $200". "Alright Sir, give me the ticket and I'll send in a check". "I don't want your check, just pay the fine here and now or I'll drag you down to the pokey". Mr. Jelsey hands over $200, asks for receipt and is told "We don't carry receipt books, hehe". Later, Mr. Jelsey contacts the Podunk Sheriff's department to question the no-receipt policy and is told there is no such policy. Mr. Jelsey tells Sheriff Inbred about the previous incident and is told if he doesn't like the policy, perhaps he should avoid the charming hamlet of Podunk on his next trip south.

So...Mr. Jelsey has just handed over $200 for the privilede of NOT spending the night in the Podunk County Jail. Can we say "Extortion"?

Definition of "justice": 1 a: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b: judge c: the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a: the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1): the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2): conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness c: the quality of conforming to law
3: conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness

Have I been denied justice? I think all of us have been at one time or another, usually it's no big deal, but then, sometimes it is.

When reciting the Pledge, I just keep my yap shut during that particular phrase, just like Hubby and I decided to cut the word "obey" from our vows. Personal preference, personal belief system...whatever, I just don't feel "right" promising something I can't give.

As for not being so ignorant as to pick a fight with me...you are among the few on these boards that I would welcome a "heated discussion" with. Your viewpoints are not always compatible with mine, but your ability to converse intelligently is a trait which I admire immensely.

Hafa Adai

I wonder if there is one legal citizen anywhere in the US that can honestly say that the illegal : housekeeper, gardner, picker, packer whatever by doing what they are doing causes them to not have a job?? I dont want to export them all, just have them on the tax rolls and documented like the rest of us....

I've asked the same question a thousand times and I've yet to find one person. If there is one I wouldn't want to have them as an employee if they can't compete for a job with some poor guy from Mexico who probably can't even speak the language.

Btw, the vast majority of illegals in this country DO pay taxes.

Who you asking, Id, illegals?

What about the guys I spoke to a week ago -- might lose their custom home construction business which they have run for many years cuz they do not hire illegals and can't compete well with those who do? Maybe they don't count.

Maybe they should advertise that they don't use illegals. I'm sure that everyone who wants to round them up and send them home would be more than willing to pay more for their homes.

Could they be using the illegals as scapegoats?

Right now times are tough for home builders.

The Hispanics that work for us are on the payroll and get paid the same as anyone else would be doing the same job.