I don't think he was wrong attacking Iraq but I think he went about it in all the wrong ways.

WHO do you think trained and armed Osama Bin Laden? First person with the right answer gets a prize!  It's all a BIG HAIRY mess if you ask me!

... but he wasn't going anywhere, and I think we had plenty of time.

Greedy -- Please tell us what you think the "right ways" would be.

WVU -- Lie or false belief? There is a difference. If see smoke billowing from your neighbor's house and you call 911 and say your neighbor's house is on fire, only to find out later that the neighbor's kids were playing with smoke bombs in the yard, did you lie to the 911 operator or did you act in good faith on a false belief?

WVU -- Lie or false belief? There is a difference.

Who is the CIA ?Alex...

if his DADDY had taken care of business back in 1991, when he had a reason to go up and knock on his door and take him down, we wouldn't be having this problem right now.

WVU -- Why do you think the CIA or NSA would lie to the leaders of both administrations and political parties?

Time and time again US and British war planes were targeted and even fired upon by anti-aircraft guns and missles. This alone is enough to resume the conflict.

If Dubaya can go in there without anyones permission, why couldn't Daddy do the same?

He was sitting on their door step and decided to leave

Remember Kosovo?

Bush did what he thought was the right thing to do at the time and I stand behind him 100%. He cares about us . As far as the WMD they probably have them hidden underground or the Saudi's have them hidden for them. Don't forget one thing.....the President knows a hell of a lot more that's going on then any of us do and I wouldn't want his job for anything.

He needs us to stand behind him at this time....he holds the weight of this Country on his shoulders. If I had a son or husband or wife who was in the World Trade Center on that fateful day, I would not have wanted to wait as long as we did to go after the culprits.

Boy, do I ever! I still hear people complaining about that

What about Rwanda a predominatly Roman Catholic nation where over 800,000 people were slaughtered and the US or any other nation did nothing to stop it, but yet we go to Kosovo.

Bush has a personal vendetta against Iraq, because they tried to "kill his Dad". And I agree that we should go after the culprits of 9/11, but THERE WAS NO LINK BETWEEN IRAQ AND THE CULPRITS. Oh, and by the way, where's Osama? There are too many Americans dying in this war and we're running out of resources. They're already talking about bringing back the draft (God help us). [http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/31188/view]

Maybe you would feel differently if you had a son or husband or wife who was killed in this Iraq war.

Yeah exactly! Where were we during all of that? Priorities, priorities....Also, the genocide in Rwanda had nothing to do with the catholics...It's was between the Tutsi and Hutu tribes, not because they were catholic, but because in 1994 a plane crashed at Kigali, Rwanda's capital, with a Hutu leader on board. The Hutus thought the Tutsis were responsible for this act. Hutu extremists began their campaign of genocide after this....

I know, I was just referring to Bmic's post. They had a special on PBS on the genocide in Rwanda, and those pictures were just too horrible to look at.

Just curious: has PBS done a special on southern Sudan?

if the Europeans had just left Africa alone maybe those countries wouldn't be like they are to day.

How long does it take us to find one guy in our own country sometimes - think Unabomber or the guy who bombed the Atlanta olympics?

Did Clinton, Gore, Daschle, Kerry, et. al. have a personal vendetta against Saddam too? Is that why they were all for attacking Iraq before Bush took over? Read the quotes again -- they all said the exact same things Bush said, but after 9-11-01 we could not afford to wait to be attacked again, we had to resume hostilities.

Bush has a personal vendetta against Iraq, because they tried to "kill his Dad".

They're already talking about bringing back the draft (God help us).

Big deal. The people who want to dodge it would so why worry? I would personally Re-up if I had to, but the draft will not come back. I would bet money on that.

I know this is shocking, but I have to agree with BMIC - we can't reform a country that wants nothing to do with us or our customs.

April 21, 2004, 8:32 a.m.
Like Mike
Baghdad is not what you see on the nightly news.

By Robert Alt

BAGHDAD, IRAQ — Cars spin down the street at night, tricked out with blue neon lights and sporting CDs dangled from their rearview mirrors. Thriving shops blare 50 Cent's In Da Club, while the young techie at one of the numerous local Internet cafés prefers to blast Nirvana. Cell phones with personalized ring tones and text messaging are literally everywhere. And teenage gamers while away their afternoons playing Vice City and Tom Clancy's Medal of Honor. Anytown, USA? No: Welcome to the new face of Baghdad, where, to quote Army Sgt. First Class Woods, the kids "want to be like Mike, not like Mahtma."

Everywhere you look in Baghdad, there are signs of capitalism. The streets are festooned with signs for Samsung and Iraqna, the major local cell-phone provider for the city. Satellite dishes — the possession of which was punishable by the state under Saddam — now hang from houses throughout the city. It is difficult to walk down Rashid Street because of all the large hand carts overloaded with televisions, computers, air conditioners, and microwaves.

The locals are snatching up not only Western goods, but Western culture. As you might expect, this is particularly true among the youth. In addition to listening to Western music, increasingly available thanks to the Armed Forces radio station, they also follow the lives of music celebrities in Arabic magazines, which chronicle events like Britney's Vegas wedding. With the proliferation of televisions and satellites, Arabic music videos — strikingly similar to Western videos — have become popular. And once rock and roll is introduced, sex and drugs must follow — well, maybe not, but the taboo against alcohol is loosening, as many of the local men sneak around in the evening to taste the forbidden elixir away from the condemning eyes of wives and clerics.

But perhaps the biggest influx of Western culture is in the area of fashion. Young women are increasingly abandoning traditional Iraqi garb in favor of more form-fitting clothes. And while the middle-aged woman across from the palace in Adhamiya may scream "Whores!" as the girls pass by in their more revealing Western garb, she does so only as a break from indulging in her own Western pursuit: hocking Pepsi on the street corner. Men are also quickly snatching up clothes emblazoned with English words, only to ask passing Americans to tell them what their clothes say. (Imagine their chagrin when they learn that their shirts' logo is not really English, but rather a Greek word for victory.)

There is also a particular fascination not only with things American, but with Americans themselves. If you tell someone from Baghdad that you are from America, you are likely to be met with excitement and the common exclamation: "I love America." They will want to know where you are from in America, and what you think of Iraq. Without prompting, they will tell you what their lives were like under Saddam, and how they have changed. And their children are likely to be drawn to the American soldiers — waving, smiling, and running to meet them. For those whose impression of Iraqi sentiment has been shaped by the nightly news, the Iraqi response to Americans may be the biggest surprise to come from a trip to Baghdad.

With all these changes, it should come as little surprise that Baghdad is experiencing growing pains. While modern conveniences are becoming increasingly common, many neighborhoods are still struggling to manage basic functions like trash disposal. Having tasted freedom and capitalism, the people want more, and they want it now. This leads to a growing impatience among the locals at the pace of rebuilding, and at the level of security. This impatience is deliberately aggravated by those who are not happy about the influx of capital and higher standards of living; those who would rather see women covered from head to toe and relegated to the home; and those who would, to paraphrase a senior Coalition official, return this country not just to the reign of Saddam, but to the seventh century. Hence, walking down Rashid Street, you are likely to hear random gunfire; in the Karada region of Baghdad, when a neighborhood begins to prosper, a bomb is likely to go off. The mission of the terrorists is simple: strike at progress, and prevent Iraqis from feeling comfortable in spite of newfound comforts.

But it is too late to turn back the clock. As the locals experience greater freedom, they demand more of it, not less. There is still a long way to go: the trash, random violence, panhandling, and vendors selling bootleg DVDs and fake Rolexes make Baghdad look like a Middle Eastern version of pre-Giuliani New York. But Baghdad has come a very long way down the road of freedom and capitalism in just one year — progress that should encourage Americans as much as it angers freedom's enemies.

— Robert Alt is a fellow in legal and international studies at the John M. Ashbrook Center for Public Affairs at Ashland University. He is beginning his second of four months in Iraq.

Sure, they've adopted some of our customs in SOME part of Iraq, but you show me the article that says the acceptance is wide-spread.

March 15— A year after the bombs began to fall, Iraqis express ambivalence about the U.S.-led invasion of their country, but not about its effect: Most say their lives are going well and have improved since before the war, and expectations for the future are very high.

Worries exist — locally about joblessness, nationally about security — boosting desires for a "single strong leader," at least in the short term. Yet the first media-sponsored national public opinion poll in Iraq also finds a strikingly optimistic people, expressing growing interest in politics, broad rejection of political violence, rising trust in the Iraqi police and army and preference for an inclusive and democratic government.

More Iraqis say the United States was right than say it was wrong to lead the invasion, but by just 48 percent to 39 percent, with 13 percent expressing no opinion — hardly the unreserved welcome some U.S. policymakers had anticipated.

As many Iraqis say the war "humiliated" Iraq as say it "liberated" the country; more oppose than support the presence of coalition forces there now (although most also say they should stay for the time being); and relatively few express confidence in those forces, in the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority, or in the Iraqi Governing Council.

These results are from an ABCNEWS poll conducted among a random, representative sample of 2,737 Iraqis in face-to-face interviews across the country from Feb. 9-28. Part of ABC's weeklong series, Iraq: Where Things Stand, marking the first anniversary of the war, the poll was co-sponsored with ABC by the German broadcasting network ARD, the BBC and the NHK in Japan, with sampling and field work by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England.

The poll finds that 78 percent of Iraqis reject violence against coalition forces, although 17 percent — a sixth of the population — call such attacks "acceptable." One percent, for comparison, call it acceptable to attack members of the new Iraqi police.

There are huge differences in these and many other questions between Arab Iraqis, who account for 79 percent of the population, and the Kurdish minority (17 percent). Forty percent of Arabs say it was right for the United States to invade; that soars to 87 percent of Kurds. Just one-third of Arabs say the war liberated rather than humiliated Iraq; it's 82 percent of Kurds. Thirty percent of Arabs support the presence of coalition forces, again compared with 82 percent of Kurds. Positive views of the invasion also are held disproportionately in the south of the country, as well as in the Kurdish north.



U.S.-led invasion: All Arabs Kurds
Was right  48%  40%  87%
Was wrong  39  46  9
         
Liberated Iraq  42%  33%  82%
Humiliated Iraq  41  48  11
       
Presence of coalition forces:     
Support  39%  30%  82%
Oppose  51  60  12
       
Attacks on coalition forces:     
Acceptable  17%  21%  2%
Unacceptable  78  74  96

Personal Lives

On a personal level, seven in 10 Iraqis say things overall are going well for them — a result that might surprise outsiders imagining the worst of life in Iraq today. Fifty-six percent say their lives are better now than before the war, compared with 19 percent who say things are worse (23 percent, the same). And the level of personal optimism is extraordinary: Seventy-one percent expect their lives to improve over the next year.

Again there are regional and ethnic differences. In the Kurdish north, 70 percent say their lives overall are better than before the war; in the south, 63 percent. That declines to 54 percent in the central region, and falls under half — to 46 percent — in the greater Baghdad area, home to more than a quarter of Iraqis.


How Iraqis See Their Lives Overall
How things are going today: All North South Central Baghdad
Good  70%  85%  65%  70%  67%
Bad  29  14  34  28  32
Compared to a year ago, before the war:         
Better  56%  70%  63%  54%  46%
Same  23  15  21  22  31
Worse  19  13  13  23  23
How they'll be a year from now:         
Better  71%  83%  74%  70%  63%
Same  9  4  6  10  16
Worse  7  1  4  9  10
Locally, unhappiness is highest by far with the availability of jobs (69 percent say it's bad) and the supply of electricity (64 percent negative). Local schools are rated positively (by 72 percent), and smaller majorities give positive ratings to the availability of basic household goods and the adequacy of local crime protection. About half give positive ratings to the availability of medical care, clean water and household goods beyond the basics, and to local government.

Iraqis divide in their rating of the local security situation now, but strikingly, 54 percent say security where they live is better now than it was before the war. However, for some, local security clearly is a great concern; 22 percent call it the single biggest problem in their lives, more than any other mention ("no job" is second, 12 percent). Local security concerns peak in greater Baghdad, where they're cited by 36 percent as the top problem, compared to a low of 8 percent in Kurdistan.

Notably, across the country, no more than 26 percent say any of these conditions are worse now than a year ago; in each about four in 10 or more say things are better; and in each sizable majorities — mostly three-quarters — expect things to improve over the next 12 months.

There's political danger, of course, if these expectations go unmet.


Ratings of Specific Local Conditions
      Today    Compared to prewar      Expectations 1-yr.
  Good  Bad  Better  Worse  Same  Better  Worse  Same
Schools  72%  26  47%  9  41  74  3  14
Household basics  56  41  47  16  35  76  3  10
Crime protection  53  44  50  21  26  75  4  11
                       
Medical care  51  47  44  16  38  75  3  12
Clean water  50  48  41  16  40  75  4  13
Local gov't  50  38  44  16  29  69  4  12
Additional goods  49  46  44  17  35  75  3  10
Security  49  50  54  26  18  74  5  10
                       
Electricity  35  64  43  23  32  74  5  11
Jobs  26  69  39  25  31  73  4  11

Security

While less of a local issue for many Iraqis, security at the national level is a vast concern; the public's top overall priority, by a huge margin, is "regaining public security in the country." Sixty-four percent give it "first priority" for the next 12 months; out of a dozen issues tested, no other even breaks into double digits.

Combining first, second and third priorities produces a more complete list: Eighty-five percent mention security in one of those slots; 55 percent, rebuilding the infrastructure; 30 percent, holding national elections; 30 percent, "ensuring that people can make a decent living," and about as many, "reviving the economy." Last on the list: "Dealing with members of the previous government," cited as a priority by only 2 percent.


National Priorities
  First, second or third priority*  First priority
Regaining public security  85%  64%
Rebuilding the infrastructure  55  7
Holding elections for national gov't  30  8
Ensuring that people can make a decent living  30  4
Reviving the economy  28  3
Regaining Iraqi governance  17  3
Ensuring that religious ideals are followed  16  3
Increasing oil production  13  2
Rebuilding the education system  10  1
Ensuring that Iraq could not be attacked from the outside  7  1
Giving people more say in their communities  3  1
Dealing with members of the previous government  2  1
*(Up to three answers accepted)

Coalition Forces

As noted, 51 percent oppose the presence of coalition forces — but that doesn't mean most want them withdrawn immediately, likely because of security concerns. Fifteen percent of Iraqis say the forces should leave the country now; by contrast, 36 percent say they should remain until a new government is in place; 18 percent, until security is restored.


How Long Should Coalition Forces Remain?
Until Iraq gov't is in place  36%
Until security is restored  18
Leave now  15
Six months or more  10
Few months  8

Just over three-quarters of Iraqis — 77 percent — say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces. Those who've had such encounters divide on the experience: about half call it a positive encounter; half, negative.

Politics

Politically, the survey finds that Iraqis overwhelmingly want their nation to remain united and centralized — 79 percent say so, compared with 14 percent who prefer a federated group of regional states, and 4 percent who want the country broken into separate nations. Among Iraqi Kurds, federated regional states — but not fully independent ones — are preferred.


Preferences for Iraq's Future Governance
  All Arabs Kurds
Unified country, central government in Baghdad  79%  90%  26%
Regional states with a federal government  14  5  58
Divide into separate independent states  4  2  12
There is relatively little support for a religious theocracy — it's low on the list of preferred forms of government.

In one change from the first national poll in Iraq by Oxford Research International last fall, more now call for a "single strong Iraqi leader" — 47 percent say one will be needed a year from now, up from 27 percent previously. That's more than say "an Iraqi democracy" will be needed, now 28 percent (essentially unchanged).

This interest in a strong leader (not necessarily an undemocratic one) seems based in security concerns. In an open-ended follow-up, references to "freedom" dominate support for democracy, while those who express support for a single strong leader are more apt to cite the need for security and order in their country.

Iraq's Needs for Governance
  In 1 year  In 5 years
Single strong Iraqi leader  47%  35%
Iraqi democracy  28  42
Government of religious leaders  10  10
Group of strong Iraqi leaders  3  3
Government of experts/managers  2  2
Iraqi Governing Council  2  *
U.N. transition government  1  1
Government of Iraqi military leaders  1  *
Coalition Provisional Authority  1  1

In another question, without a time frame mentioned, democracy wins more support than two other options — a strong leader, but one who rules "for life"; or an Islamic state. Forty-nine percent choose democracy, 28 percent a "strong leader" and 21 percent an Islamic state.

Preferred Political System
Democracy  49%
Strong leader "for life"  28
Islamic state  21

As noted, more Iraqis express interest in politics — 54 percent, up from 39 percent in November — and 31 percent say their interest in politics has increased in the past year, three times the number who say it's decreased. Women are more apt than men to express interest in politics, though it's up among both groups.

Fragmentation

But other results suggest a level of political fragmentation that may challenge the country's political development, and throws into some question the notion of early elections. Despite interest in a strong leader, six in 10 Iraqis can't name a single national leader they trust (though even more can't name one they specifically mistrust).

Sixty-one percent express little or no trust in political parties, and nearly seven in 10 don't identify themselves with any party. The only parties that emerge with more than minimal support are either Islamist or Kurdish; respondents named more than 25 individual parties, but most had less than 1 percent support. (All were volunteered in response to an open-ended question.)

Political Party Support
Islamic Al-Dawa Party  14%
Kurdistan Democratic Party (PDK)  11
Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK)  10
Iraqi Islamic Party  6
Higher Council of Islamic Revolution  5
All other individual mentions  2 or fewer

Three-quarters say joining a political party is something they "would never, under any circumstances, do." Indeed, after decades of repression, more than a third, 36 percent, say that simply talking with other people about politics is something they would never do.

Political Engagement
  Have done Might do Would never do
Talk with others about politics  46  15  36
Vote in elections  17  62  18
Join a political party  5  13  75
Take action like demonstrating  5  19  70
Use violence/force if needed  *  12  82
Choices also are fragmented when Iraqis are asked which national leader they "trust the most" — more than 40 individual answers, each with few mentions. Only five received mentions from more than 3 percent:

  • Ibrahim Al-Jaaferi, 8 percent (main spokesman for the Islamic Dawa Party);
  • Massoud Barzani, 6 percent (leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party);
  • Jalal Talabani, 6 percent (leader of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan);
  • Sayyid Al-Sistani, 5 percent (the country's leading Shiite cleric, sometimes described as the most powerful man in Iraq); and
  • Adnan Pachachi, 4 percent (foreign minister in the government deposed by Saddam Hussein in 1968, he founded the Independent Democratic Movement last month.)

One figure, meanwhile, was cited by 10 percent as a leader they "don't trust at all" — Ahmed Chalabi, former leader of the London-based Iraqi National Congress, now a member of the Iraqi Governing Council.

Trust

In terms of confidence in institutions, the gainers, as noted, are the Iraqi police — 68 percent express trust in it, up from 45 percent in November — and the Iraqi army, with 56 percent trust, up from 39 percent in the fall.

Confidence (not necessarily in political terms) peaks at 70 percent for "religious leaders." No other institutions receive majority trust; notable are the IGC, at 39 percent, the CPA, at 28 percent; and the U.S. and U.K. forces, at 25 percent.


Confidence in Institutions
  % confident
Religious leaders  70%
The police  68
New Iraqi army  56
Local leaders in your community  50
Iraqi Media Network TV  50
Ministries in Baghdad  44
The press  43
The United Nations  40
The (Iraqi Governing) Council  39
The CPA  28
Political parties  28
U.S. and U.K. occupation forces  25

Model

Few Iraqis see non-Arab nations as a model for their country — just 6 percent cite the United States, 5 percent Japan — but many more want those nations to play a role in rebuilding Iraq. Among top mentions, 36 percent say the United States should play a role in rebuilding the country, 36 percent Japan, 22 percent the United Kingdom, 22 percent France, and 17 percent Germany.

Again in terms of a model for the country, 24 percent say it doesn't need one. The only other mention above single digits is the United Arab Emirates, a primarily Sunni federation of largely independent city-states (it was cited by 26 percent of Sunnis compared with 15 percent of Shia Muslims, but was top-ranked, by far, in both groups).

Religion

In religious terms, 96 percent of Iraqis are Muslim. In this poll 40 percent identified themselves as Sunni Muslim, 33 percent as Shia, and 23 percent did not cite an affiliation within Islam. Given the potential of sectarian strife and history of repression, there may be reluctance to discuss religious matters in Iraq; just 55 percent say they had even heard of "Iraq's religious leaders," in aggregate. Of those who say they had heard of them, 81 percent of Shia Muslims expressed confidence in these leaders, compared with 57 percent of Sunnis.

In another difference, 92 percent of Shiites prefer a unified Iraq with its central government in Baghdad, compared with two-thirds of Sunnis. And a quarter of Sunnis called attacks on coalition forces acceptable, compared with 11 percent of Shiites.

Demographics

The poll also paints a compelling demographic portrait of the Iraqi people. In just 20 percent of Iraqi households does the main breadwinner hold a full-time, outside job; 58 percent are self-employed. Average household income is the equivalent of $164 per month, for an average of eight people per household.

Eighty-one percent of households have a refrigerator; 44 percent, an air conditioner (the average daily high temperature in Baghdad in August is 108 degrees); 44 percent, a washing machine; 37 percent, a telephone; 21 percent, a still camera. There are disparities across regions, with the south of the country substantially poorer.

The poll was conducted among Iraqis age 15 and up; those under age 18 accounted for 10 percent of the total sample (their attitudes are not strikingly different from their elders'). Iraq is a young country: Sixty-six percent of Iraqis 15 and up are under age 35, compared with 36 percent of Americans age 15 and up.

Methodology

This poll was conducted for ABCNEWS, ARD, the BBC and NHK by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England. Interviews were conducted in person, in Arabic and Kurdish, among a random national sample of 2,737 Iraqis age 15 and up from Feb. 9-28. The results have a two-point error margin.

What bugs me MOST is that in Africa, we ignore what we would probably nuke if it were anywhere else. Racism?

Those are ridiculous facts, there are 24,683,313 (July 2003 est., according to the CIA world factbook) they polled ALMOST 2800 people...LAME!

These results are from an ABCNEWS poll conducted among a random, representative sample of 2,737 Iraqis in FACE-TO-FACE interviews ACROSS THE COUNTRY from Feb. 9-28.

Funny this poll was done by the most Left wing news corps. ABC & BBC.

And if you bothered to read a little.

YOU POSTED THE ARTICLE!!! LOL!!! Yeah, YOUR poll was done for ABC and they BBC...LOL!

Shi'a 60%-65%...They don't like us much...Hmmm..they are the majority over there, think about it....

Whats so LOL? I asked you to simply find me any poll ever taken in the history of man that has polled an entire populance?

Ok I've thought about it. Where is any evidence to back up your claim all Shi'a hate us?

Shi'a = Ever heard of guy named Muqtada al-Sadr??

Why do I feel like I'm talking to John Kerry here. I asked you for any poll you have ever seen that has covered a majority of a country in it's poll taking. I have yet to hear a reply. Sounds like your dodging the question.
I posted the article from ABC/BBC so Libs on here wouldn't say the article is baised. If I posted the same article from Fox News, I know what kind of response I'd get.

He also has pleanty of openings in his brigade now if anyone is interested in helping him destroy the infadel.

So your telling me that this guy represents the feelings of all the Shi'a in Iraq? That's like saying Jessie Jackson represents what all African-Americans in this country believe in. 

Mcgrupp and Phish, If you all are so militarily and politically correct tell us what should be done in Iraq? Cut and run and let the ethnic cleansing between shi'a-Kurd-and sunni begin? And I don't want to hear the cockamamy reply "We shouldn't have gone there".

Big deal. The people who want to dodge it would so why worry? I would personally Re-up if I had to, but the draft will not come back. I would bet money on that.

If that comment about his brigades was directed towards me, then I have a few choice words for you! I served my country buddy!

As far as your comment about ethnic cleansing? Why not? We don't lift a hand anywhere else! Not Sudan, not the Congo, not Rwanda, BARELY made it to Kosovo, so why don't you tell me what the difference is there? Let's think about that for a minute...We have absolutley NOTHING to gain from helping people in Sudan, the Congo, or anywhere else, not to mention most are black! AND THEY HAVE NO OIL TO OFFER US!!!! Hmm...where's the real tradgedy here?

They are sending 20,000 more troops, and Dumsfeld wants at least 30,000 recruited this year...LOL! Good luck there buddy!

LOL

I don't care who took the poll, ABC, CNN, FOX, BBC, or whomever, it's still only 2800 people, and that doesn't tell me anything!

We have absolutley NOTHING to gain from helping people in Sudan, the Congo, or anywhere else, not to mention most are black! AND THEY HAVE NO OIL TO OFFER US!!!! Hmm...where's the real tradgedy here?