Christ's central message of love, forgiveness and working on your own sins (rather than those of others) has nearly been obliterated by what claims to be his church.

http://juandejesus.50megs.com/realrel.html

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...and, your point is???

or are you just cross posting this website link to any forum board you can find?

I see you visited baltimoresun.com with your posting.

One Hit Wonder? Or are you going to follow up with a point/justification/discussion?

By the way, welcome to the H-M forums.

Thanks for the link, Charlezgrant - I liked what the site had to say.

Talk about hipocracy... this guy claims there is only "one rule" in "real religion" -- try to love everyone, then smears all Southern Baptists!

The 10 Commandments must be a "sham," too.

Oh Snoopy - I know it's hard for you to love everyone, even the liberals, but it's still a good rule to TRY and live by.

The website seems to be a fanatical view of religion from the other side of the spectrum. BTW, no church that I've been to excludes people, in fact most are very welcome of visitors.

I don't see how loving everyone, and judging only yourself, and not other people, is so fanatical.

Also, there are plenty of religious organizations who won't accept EVERYONE. I can't list them all here, but I've heard of very strict guidelines within the Jehovah's witness religion, among others.

No, that's not so bad, but what about what the site says about the church taking collections. This person failed to mention that a good portion of this money goes on to fund schools, hospitals, nursing homes, homeless shelters, and general relief to the poor. The site IMO is basically says just go do your own thing and forget about morals, or ethics.

Maybe the Jehovah Witnesses do have guidelines, but they'd be more than willing to take you into their church. Why else do you think they give out pamphlets and go door to door.

Try crossing the Catholic church sometime, and you'll change your mind about that statement. Maybe the key word there is they are very welcome of visitors.

Never been to a Catholic church for mass (just weddings & funerals), only Lutheran, Methodist, & Episcopalian which all seem to be very welcoming of others. Although, the Catholic church is usually very respectful of other religions and denominations of Christianity. The Catholic church is also, IMO, one of the best when it comes to caring for the poor.

The Goddess and God I worship are not short on cash.

One rule- An do ye will an harm ye none.

nuff said. there is NO right way to beleive and there is NO right or ONE releigion!!

Nice little New Age delusion.

The central message of Christ is:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already . . ." John 3:16-18

"I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

In John 14:6, Jesus Christ says it plainly: he is the way, not a way. Christians, churches, and religions did not speak those words nor invent that idea. Jesus Christ - God - said it.

Either believe it, or not. If you believe in the God of the Bible, you cannot believe in other gods. If you believe in other gods, you do not truly believe in the God of the Bible: you believe in something you made up to suit your own needs. The message of Christ is much more comprehensive than the little bits and pieces that non-Christian "fringe" groups borrow and twist so as to contradict the rest of the message. The few passages I quoted above are certainly not the only ones, but they, as the rest of them, are not disposable.

The fact that the God of the Jews and Christians is the ONLY god is central to both Judaism and Christianity. The fact that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to salvation is central to Christianity.

P.S. - Lots of folks have other beliefs and faiths. That's your God-given right. You have the right to choose whom or what you will follow. Mankind was created with free will: the right to choose.

Christians know that via the Bible and many witnesses, God has shown mankind the immediate and eternal physical and spiritual consequences of various choices, and the way He has made to escape those consequences, but each one has right to choose to do and believe as and what they will.

Make no mistake: there is no Christian alive who has perfectly chosen every time: no Christian alive who has not experienced at least some immediate consequence of their poor choices. Therefore no Christian alive has the right to look down on any other man or woman. But we do know what to do in order to be successful, fulfilled, happy, and assured of an eternal life of success, fulfilment and happiness. Knowing, we know what are poor choices with negative consequences, and therefore and seek to prevent others from making the same bad choices (and therefore seek to prevent the promotion thereof).

Why do people hold up the Bible as if it were proven fact?

The Bible as literature was written in bits and pieces over 2,000 years ago. Jesus didn't write the words. Someone else did, after hearing of stories passed down over centuries. It was written in an archaic language and translated and re-translated until the King James version that most people read today. Words then, did not necessarily have the same meaning as words today. Plus, it is a TRANSLATION. You are placing faith in the translators when you hold up the Bible.

The Bible is merely a document of faith. If you have faith, you believe in it. To me, the Bible is an interesting semi-historical document. It is not a guidepost to life, nor is it a ticket to "heaven".

Not criticizing anyone's faith here. Merely expressing my opinion.

Because we know, in the truest philosophical sense, that it is true. One does not believe in fact: one knows it. Anyone who talks of their "beliefs" has a lesser degree of assurance.

Translations are exactly that: translations. The Bible is not the King James version, the Revised standard version, the Living Bible, the New American Standard version, or any other translation. It is the central body of truth from God which men have faithfully written down on behalf of, and with the direct assistance of, God (we use the term "inspiration" and the evidence for it is voluminous). Various translations are acknowledged to have strengths and weaknesses, and goals.

For example, the Living Bible is acnowledged by those who translated it to be paraphrased, not literal. It gives one a general sense of the message, but does not claim to be anything approaching literal, and therefore it's not suitable for scholarly study of many of the finer points. This is no surprise to its authors. It doesn't make it any less the Bible. It just isn't intended, by man or God, to be taken literally. It give a general sense of the message.

The argument about the difference in meanings of words from the time the King James version was translated to the present is totally unconvincing. We're well aware of the fact, acknowledge it, and when reading and studying it, account for it. The King James version is used so widely because it is most familiar to so many, and many (certainly not all) have adopted its use as a tradition. For example, we may not use the word "thou" in daily life, but neither do we have any confusion as to what it means.

Despite various translational issues, which we constantly work to discover and account for, the meaning of every single word and passage in the Bible remains unchanged. Literature changes in significant ways over the centuries, as humans, without Divine assistance, cannot help but makes mistakes that add up to changes in meaning of large portions. Changes the likes of which simply do not exist in the Bible.

Why do you think that those translations that were made thousands of years ago are completely, 100% accurate? You seem to put a lot of faith into those translators. I don't think you really answered Yossarian's question - all you did was reaffirm what everyone already knows - that you think the bible is 100% accurate, and therefore, you are too, in your beliefs.

WARNING:

Religion is a very touchy subject. Often forbidden or at least avoided because it usually get to be VERY contentious. Anything anyone says about it can be expected to be met with powerful emotional opposition which can get very very "messy". Discussions thereof therefore often fail to accomplish much of anything.

As each non-adherent so often and easily mischaracterizes each religion or set of religious "beliefs", practically everyone eventually (and usually quickly) gets defensive.

So I'm not so sure this should continue, which doesn't mean it won't or that I won't continue to defend my own "beliefs".

It is possible to carry on an unemotional debate about religion, but it's often beyond most people's ability to do so, and beyond practically everyone's ability to sustain it. Some benefits can come of it, but in most cases they are very few. Maybe we can try, but it requires that one stick to sharing and describing ones own "beliefs" (even if they include exclusivity) without trying to describe what one THINKS the others' are, and exploring the differences between what one "believes" and what the other has said that they "believe" rather than what you THINK they "believe". I broke that "rule" myself in one respect when I tied the "beliefs" espoused by that web site to the label "New Age". I did not, when I described my own "beliefs'" characteristic exclusivity.

I asked you this before and I will ask you this again...

Why did God's word stop???Did he run out of things to say or to be written???

or is it like some of post end "that is all"...

Because "translations" are exactly that, by definition. They are different-language (and, different-idiom and sometimes different-purpose) versions of exactly what was said or written. When humans attempt to translate, they make mistakes: when God translates (simply using human hands by means of inspiration), He does so perfectly. That perfect translation being in the idiom and for the purpose intended.

Hopefully that gets across my point more succinctly, though I know it's subject to criticism, and there have been criticisms levied and answered and there are volumes upon volumes of literature regarding the inspiration of scripture, and a number of scriptures themselves that are repeated in numerous translations, to which we could each refer. I've studied some of them, and we could go on along that vein.

It hasn't. He speaks to Christians to this day.

mmmmokay

BMIC, I do not mean to disrespect your beliefs, nor do I care or intend to cast aspersions upon your religious philosophy.

I just don't understand how the hands of the translators of the Bible were guided by the hand of God. Again and again I have read where certain words of the Bible have been found to be mis-translated and thus have met with new meanings. I'm sorry I can't cite those words specifically, but are the new translations and interpretations also guided by the hand of God; or are they mere thoughts of heretics?

Was the new age Bible guided by God? Was King James guided by God? How about the Koran? How does the Old Testament differ from the New Testament in how the interpretations were guided by the hand of God? If humans make mistakes when translating the words of the Bible, how are they not guided by the will of God?

bmic- New Age!!*sigh* Artifacts have been found dating back to the Ice Age.
I have NEVER came across a "christian" who didn't think that "their way is the right way". Can't ya just let people do their own thing their own way?As long as they ain't hurting you and yours just "move on". Worry bout your own house and wether or not YOU are living as YOU beleive. Sides from what I'm hearing all my life,it ain't you guy's job to do the "tallying". It's your god's.



Bright Blessings people.

So??? Don't you think that "your way" is the "right way"? Otherwise, I assume it wouldn't be "your way".

Sometimes you have to have faith instead of just relying on the facts, I think that's what BMIC is trying to say. I've always thought of the Bible as kind of like a guidebook to life that is essentially saying how to live i.e Golden Rule & Ten Commandments.

But ya see snoopy,hun, I don't care what others believe,if they do or don't. I mind my own business when it comes to that part of someones life. I work hard every day to have a private "living'(?),"oneness"(?)(whatever you want to call it), with MY beliefs. I don't shove it down other's throats and demand that they have to do as I do,etc. Actually sometimes I feel kinda sorry for those people who put so much energy into trying to force their religion on others that they seem to have veered off their path so to speak and should be using that same energy to work on themselves,inwardly,ya know?.

Amen! God works & moves in ways that we may never understand! If you open your heart to him, you'll hear his voice...

whew do I ever know whatcha mean there WVD!! My mother-in-law was Seventh Day Adventist & man oh man did I get an earful on an almost daily basis about how I was going to hell because I wasn't of her religion, the one "true" religion. Don't get me wrong, I like to think of myself as a good Christian women not without faults & errors of course but according to her I wasn't "good enough" to marry her son simply because of my religion! Unfortunately my mother-in-law has since passed away from cancer but she sure did have alot of anger towards those of different faiths!

*disclaimer* I'm in no way "downing" anyone of Seventh Day Adventist faith- I'm simply sharing my experience with one person of that faith.

From the time I was 2 days old until the time that my father died (17.5 years old), I was drug to the Catholic church. That included 5 years of nuns in the catholic school and then, when I went to public school, CCD classes every Wednesday night (they took me out of girl scouts for CCD classes). However, when I got married, I was told that I was not married in their eyes, because I was not married in a Catholic church. So, in their eyes, my child is a bastard. As I've gotten older, I've had many more experiences (including divorce and remarriage, again not in a catholic church) that make me a horrible person to catholics. I still don't understand how one man (the pope) and his henchmen can tell me how to live my life when they have been cloistered in an exclusive community and (supposedly) abstinent all of their lives.

I guess because of the nuns, etc., I believe the Bible, and I go to any church I want to once a year - on Christmas. I don't feel that you have to be in a building to be close to your God, and I believe that trying to follow the 10 commandments are the keys to being a good Christian. I am not of any faith, but I am a Christian. So why do the different sects compete the way they do - we all believe in the same God. I mean, even the Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists believe in one person who is God (under different names), and have the same 10 commandments (under different names).

I HATE the topic of religion - the basics are so easy to understand, it's how the different sects compete that just blows me away. I prefer my own way.

You have my sympathy there. Once you get past the basics, the various Christian denominations sometimes get so involved in fighting over petty details (usually stuff that has no clear foundation in the Scriptures) that they turn off an awful lot of believers. They too often lose sight of the importance of unity around the basic, biblical foundations.

In this world filled with demonic forces, where the Father of Lies has increasing influence, where we're constantly assailed by deadly deception, we would do far better to get back to, and stick to, the basics of scripture. We'd do better to set aside the extrabiblical nonsense that too often divides us.

It's only when you say that the deities of the Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists are the same person as God that you lose me.

Look, I don't profess to be totally knowledgeable about other faiths, but I always understood that Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims all have a figure who is their "God" who is kind, generous, loving, and forgiving. Even the Jewish believe in a God with those characteristics, they just don't think he's been here yet. Am I wrong?

The Muslims do believe in the same God that Christians and Jews do BMIC, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet just not THE prophet. That's why to go to Saudi Arabia you either have to be Muslim, Jewish, or Christian since we worship the same God.

Hindus, however, believe in MANY, MANY, Gods, and I don't think the Buddhist believe in any God, but try to attain englightenment to reach nirvana.

Well, I guess my understanding was wrong. Thanx for teaching me!

Untrue. Christians know that Jesus Christ is God the Son. That's an essential tenet of Christianity. Any version of Jesus who is not the son of God is not the same as the Jesus - God - of the Christians and Jews. If Jesus were not the perfect Son, we would have no hope of salvation.

Any similarities between God and the being whom Muslims worship are extremely superficial. One need know very little about the two faiths to see that.

I FOUND JESUS!!!!



In the trunk when I got back from Tijuana

Look, I don't think I'm going to convince you otherwise, but Muslims believe that they're descendents from Ismael, the son of Abraham.