This short video describes a theory?, fact?, conspiracy? that no commercial airliner ever hit the Pentagon. It's very worth your time if you ever wondered about the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11.

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/pentagon.htm#Main

I get a "Under maintenance, check back soon message" on the link.

Can you summarize for us Biggins?

The gist of it is that the damage to the Pentagon and the debris at the scene are not consistent with that of a 767 impact at 500+ mph. They offer witness comments indicating "it sounded like a missle" or "it looked like a small commuter plane". To fuel the conspiracy theory, they talk about several security cameras in the vicinity that would have captured good video of the impact, but had tapes confiscated by the FBI before it could be viewed/released. It also claimed that there was no radar contact for the last leg of the flight after it turned back towards Washington and it's eventual crash.

To my non-trained eye, the damage looks exactly like I would expect for a long, slender aluminum tube hitting that building at that speed. It punched a hole through the rings of the Pentagon, but the fragile wings all but disentagrated, causing damage only to the outer ring.

The radar contact was lost because commercial flights are tracked by their transponders that send critical flight data (speed, heading, altitude) to the control towers. The first thing the terrorist did after seizing control of the planes was shut the transponders off. The controllers would have had to reconfigure their equipment to track the flights by conventional radar. The flight was tracked by "regular radar" upon entering Washington's airspace.

A military C-130 pilot on a routine flight in the area on 9/11 visually idenified the Washington aircraft as a 767. The C-130 watched it crash into the Pentagon. According to the 9/11 Commision, there were no armed military aircraft in the air with clearance to shoot down airliners until well after the last flight (93 in PA) had crashed.

I was actually silly enough to read the entire 9/11 Commission report, so that's what I base my opinion/info on.

Nevertheless, thanks for the link Biggins. It was very interesting.

Thanks SMan.

I may be wrong, but I thought I remembered watching video of the plane striking the Pentagon, not too long after 9/11.

I stopped reading after I noticed the .UK in the web address.

So all the witnesses and people involved -- including firefighters, rescue people, pentagon employees and relatives of those who died on that flight are part of a great cover-up? To what end?

I have a friend who is a fire fighter in that area. He was one of the first fire companys to arrive on the sight of the crash. It was commerical flight as first reported.

I had a friend who said the plane that hit it flew over (near) his car when he was sitting in traffic near the Pentagon that day...

who knows...

The video of the plane hitting the Pentagon from Pentagon security cameras was a part of the video.

I don't believe it, but I thought it was an interesting little site that my friend sent me the other day.

It's a reasonable conspiracy theory IMO.

Biggins,

I know you to be a pretty smart fellow, so please explain what you think is "reasonable" about this theory, what proof exists, and who would perpetrate this lie (the "lie" that it was a commercial airliner) and for what reason.

So maybe "reasonable" wasn't the correct word. I just thought it was better than other theories I've heard like the moon is made out of cheese and many other "urban legends" like the lake in Hagerstown City Park being bottomless, etc.

The video supported its argument that a "missile" or small aircraft hit the Pentagon, but it failed to give details about why it wasn't a commercial aircraft.

Again, I do not believe what this video portrayed, but I found it interesting when my friend sent it to me, and I thought it might make someone do a double-take or just think about it further.

Never heard that one before.

Digging up an old thread here, but another board I browse got around to discussing this video. Somebody posted a link to photos that clearly show aircraft debris on 9/11. See below.

http://www.news.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=2445

Haven't you heard, it was Bush that flew those planes into the towers and the Pentagon? All in the interest of oil.

Just finished watching this video. Really good information. Worth watching IMO. Good persuasive argument that the Twin Towers went down the way a demolition takes place. Lots of interesting stuff.

I know it's been debated before, but I thought this website does a thorough investigative job.

See what you think. Guaranteed to make you think.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=78...se+change+recut

Wikipedia

Believe what you want Checkingin, personally I thing it has been discredited enough for me not to believe it.

Checks - dig up the old simons thread on this topic. Yoss and I and a few others posted links in the first couple pages (before it devolved into a flame fest) that were from neutral, reputable, scientific sources. Browse through those links and it'll put to rest most of the conspiracy theories, especially the controlled demo of the towers theory.

http://www.herald-mail.com/forums/index.ph...5&hl=simons

I'm surprised no one has put forth a theory that the Towers are still there but we can't see them because they are phased into another dimension.

Airplanes filled with tons of jet fuel, piloted by hijackers, crashed into the WTC and the Pentagon.

That's all folks.

And that's why they fell?

Yep.

I also think that millions of people - Jews, homosexuals, Slavs - could be rounded up, put in concentration camps, and killed.

Crazy, huh?

Not this one.

Good luck trying to convince anyone how it fell. Most people don't even know that it did.




What about political dissenters?

Thanks, SMan and Monk,

I remembered it had been discussed in the past and I wasn't interested at that time. When you said "Simons", it brought back lots of memories!

I tried finding some past threads with no luck. So thanks, Monk for the link. I will read them.

But, did anybody actually watch the video. You have to admit that there are ALOT of strange facts that don't add up. Makes you wonder what really happened.

No need to start a "war" here again. I find it very interesting and don't put anything past the government. Just what I believe. And, yeah, I'll believe what I want. You are free to do the same. Smile.

One other thing I'd like to add. Watching the video has motivated me to learn more about the Patriot Act and Homeland Security. I went to the library today and got a book out entitled, Patriots Act by Bill Katovsky.

"Voices of Dissent and the Risk of Speaking Out". So, I am going to read up on that.

There have been alot of changes since 911 and I want to learn more about the changes in government. Something new for me! So, if anyone has any recommendations, I'd like to hear of other books to do some research.

I read the Simons thread and really don't want to get into the flaming in this thread. But, would like to have any suggestions as to books to read to learn what has changed since 911 happened. Thanks.

Going to read up on Bush's (and Bush Sr.) New World Order. Any recommendations?

Did you start by actually reading the Patriot Act yourself instead of relying on somebody else's view on it? Everybody puts a spin on it, both positive and negative. That's why I'd read the actual document myself, as dry as it may be. Try to stay awake if you do!

Once you know what it actually says, you'll have a better equipped BS detector for when both sides of the debate crank up the rhetoric and hyperbole.

As for the video, I watched some of it a long time ago, but don't remember much about it other than feeling it wasn't credible. Are there any particular facts from the video you'd like to discuss?

Good Advice, Sman. I'll do that first before I read the book. I found it on the net. Will see how much I can get through before my old brain explodes!

Another note to add. I definitely like conspiracy therories. I find that there is always a bit of truth in there somewhere. All types of governments are always riddled with hidden agendas. IMO.

I also am very grateful to be in this country and thankful for all that our military does to protect our freedoms. I support our troops and what they are doing in Iraq, despite the political tensions. Whether it is "right" or "wrong" to be in Iraq does not mean that the troops aren't doing their upmost on the job. Of course, they are.

With that said, I have become very apathetic towards politics and politicians. Having the facts from both sides of a "story" is important to me before I will make a decision on what to believe.

Within the past few years, I've found it harder and harder to know who is representing the best interests of the people. We all know that neither party has all the answers. And anytime a President has served for two terms, people are sick of him near the end. So, even though this may be a "conspiracy theory", it has provoked and stirred up my interest in being more informed on the issues that have taken place since 911. This, of course, is a good thing. Apathy sux. I admire when people are passionate about an issue even if I disagree. Don't like it when people take that passion and insult others who disagree, though. Just not necessary. That's the wonderful part of our country. We can speak out, disagree, and debate.

Will be back in touch!

SMan,

One thing I noticed while reading the Patriot Act is that it was written and passed within a little over thirty days after 911. From the parts that I read, it all sounds very reasonable and logical due to the danger that 911 "proved" to our country's welfare.

Just seems a little quick on the draw for the government to come up with this Act. I realize that the Homeland Security was already in place and reasonably the Patriot Act as well long before 911. Most Americans would need a real good reason to allow the system to be legally set up, don't you think? Too many people realize how easy it is to exploit our privacy and rights with this ACT. But, if direly needed, due to imminent threat of terrorism that hits home, I can see how no one would protest. Just my curious mind at work. But, I don't see my thinking along those lines as so extremely paranoid. History shows that the government will "overlook" certain violence in the name of the greater good. I'm thinking of Pearl Harbor.

So, I can see why people believe that there may be more to the terrorist attack than what the government is saying. I believe there is no turning back. The Homeland Security is expanding in the name of our Country's Protection. However, there is a lot of room for government intrusion in our private lives and corruption beyond imagination. I don't think anyone would agrue that point. It seems that anything man creates for good, also has the protential to destroy the very thing that man set up to protect.

Both sides of the 911 explanation have scientific facts to back it up. But, being the sceptic that I am, I can't quite believe either is completely correct. Too many scientists do things backwards, putting alot of prejudice into the "facts". They'll start out with a conceived end-result and begin to prove their point. Not all, of course, but enough to make me question even the scientists.

Funny, but after reading the "Simons" thread, I think the sentiment that sways me the most against the conspiracy theory is what Udmas said. Something like, "Too many people would have had to be involved. And that many people couldn't keep their mouths shut!" Now, that, I gotta agree with! lol

Well, you are absolutely right.

By the way, I've got to get this off my chest.

I know where Jimmy Hoffa is.

I know who the 2nd shooter was of JFK.

more too follow.

I feel better already for finally letting go...............

SMan:

A few things that come to mind are the fact that the first fireman in the building reported hearing explosions going off all over in the Twin Towers. Also, a maintenance man reporting that he heard an explosion coming from the basement area. This video isn't the same one that was on the Simons thread. It is very interesting even if you are convinced of it's validity. There is alot of documentation shown.

Also, there was alot of research done about the Pentagon plane. It shows re-enactments of how large a hole would occur if a jet flew into the building. The hole that was made was shown not to be large enough. Also, many firefighters (first responders) reported smelling cordite. The video had evidence and some live footage of the actually conversations going on at the time. Pretty interesting. I think it was well presented.

I know that there were two or three examples in the past of planes flying into buildings and burning. I would have to go back and watch it again to get the details. But, it's on there.

Now that you've watched the conspiracy theorist videos, go back and watch a few of the documentaries done by PBS, History Channel, and Nat. Geo. Channel. These documentaries support the official version of why the tower collapsed, the version endorsed by the National Institute of Standards and Technologies (along with numerous other fire/engineering/construction organizations). Are they all wrong and people the likes of simons are right? Or are we to believe they are in on it?

As for the Pentagon strike, Snopes.com has an excellent page on debunking the theories that anything other than that 757 hit the building.

Conspiracy theories are fun. I enjoy reading about them myself, but there is just overwhelming evidence to the contrary in this case*. I can't understand when folks are willing to grasp one or two little tidbits of conspiratorial info and ignore a mountain of scientific evidence and consensus. It boggles my mind. I'm not saying that's what you are doing in this case, I'm just speaking in general terms.

You want a 9/11 conspiracy theory that I can get behind? How about that we shot down Flight 93? If only it were true, then maybe some solace could be had by knowing that our homeland defenses weren't so utterly unprepared as they were reported to be.

*As Pops pointed out, there is no consensus on the cause of WTC 7's collapse.

As far as all the conspiracy explanations.. none of the conspiracy supporters ever venture a theory as to what happened to the passengers on that plane. Are they all in a witness protection program somewhere? Were they called up in the rapture? No, they're all dead, killed in a plane crash at the Pentagon.. ask the relatives of the people who were on that flight.

That's a really good point, Yoss. It is impossible for those families to all be involved. I'll watch some of the documentaries and been reading the sites you listed from the Simons thread. I'm not losing any sleep over any of this. Just find it interesting.

Once I've satisfied my curiosity, I will be onto some other conspiracy if I can find one! Or maybe I'll just stick to my spy novels!

Thanks guys.

Don't feel the need to "convince" anyone. The fall of Building 7 was not a secret as I recall it being announced on the news coverage at the time. I noted it because I wasn't aware that it was a complex of buildings beyond the WTC 1 and 2.
If, according to your wikipedia source, FEMA is the agency that must provide an explanation as to why Building 7 fell, than it's not a great surprise they haven't figured it out yet.





What about the President of Iran? He can prove that the Holocaust never happened.

He's just a political dissenter?

He can?

Sure he can, like Id can prove Bush lied to steal oil from Iraq.

Well if Zogby says so it must be true

Nope. i've seen and heard all I care to from you and simon. thanks anyway

You got one thing right it would be a waste of time trying to prove it.

Say anything enough times and people will believe it.

Sorry buddy. You might not have agreed directly on with any specific issue with L.Simons but thats the category (crazed fanatic) you fall into now as far as I am concerned. While your persistence might be an admirable trait I find it hard to even take you seriously anymore. And before you tell me not to categorize you let me remind you that you do it CONSTANTLY to people who don't agree with you.

Simons has his anti govt. 9/11 crusade and you have your anti Bush crusade and are both so blinded in your cause to be right I find it a little monotonous. ALL of your topics or responses ALWAYS wind up at the same place. A thread as innocent as "what did you eat for lunch today" is not immune to you turning it into a lets slam Bush fest!

This lie is not big enough--Just ask Stalin, et. al. The way to lie was BIG...THINK GIANT... The Jews are responsible. the pollacks are responsible..for example..

The Zogby poll does not say that, unless you're blinded by Bush hatred, as Id is.